Get ready for an empowering episode of Fearless Females as we welcome Dr. Estelle Harris. This trailblazing clinical professor of medicine, known for her passion for both healthcare and horseback riding, is here to share her inspiring life story.
From balancing a demanding medical career with personal passions to offering practical advice on managing anxiety and setting boundaries, Dr. Harris’s journey is a masterclass in resilience and grit. She’ll also reveal the pivotal role of mentorship and support networks in her success.
Tune in for a heartening conversation that’s packed with wisdom, encouragement, and actionable insights.
Show Highlights:
- A fascinating career prologue to a doctor and horsewoman. [00:04:21]
- A sensible route to self-care and responsibility laid out. [00:09:49]
- How to develop with mentors with compassion. [00:12:33]
- Explore the importance of accepting your fallibility. [00:15:56]
- Stellar guidance for a life-affirming start to adult life. [00:18:48]
- Discover the gender-inclusion progress in medicine. [00:21:44]
- Uncover an ode to wholesome childcare and growth. [00:24:04]
- Key advice for young people to unlock true potential. [00:31:12]
For more information or to connect with Estelle Harris: https://healthcare.utah.edu/find-a-doctor/estelle-s-harris
If you enjoyed this episode, please go to Apple Podcasts and leave a review!
For more information about Lorie Jones, go to http://fearless-females.com/.
00:00.00
loriejones7
Well good morning. Thanks for joining us again. We are here today with Dr Estel Harris she's the clinical professor of medicine at the university of Utah and a pulmonary critical care physician. Dr. Harris thank you so much for joining us today I really appreciate you taking the time to to chat with me.
00:20.66
Estelle Harris
Um I Want to thank you for inviting me to be part of this podcast and you're very welcome.
00:26.20
loriejones7
So I'm super excited to get to know a little bit about you today and especially um I haven't had a doctor on the program before and I'm interested in delving in all the different ways that that. Is like you know other industries or different than nedler industries. But before we kind of get started on that I am a reader I love everything what is your favorite book.
00:51.36
Estelle Harris
Um, well I want to tell you about 3 favorite books that I've read in the last year um and they span from brand new to being around for a number of years. Um, the most recent one that I really liked and I've always been a big fan of Abraham Vahes is his new book the covenant of water. It spans multiple generations um of a family in India and has.
01:11.37
loriejones7
Boom. Okay.
01:21.80
Estelle Harris
Incredible writing actually has some medical aspects to it and it's just a really at times sad. But a great story. These.
01:31.37
loriejones7
All right I'll stack that on my book stack. What else.
01:36.52
Estelle Harris
The second one is because I am a nature and animal lover and especially a horse person is horse by Geraldine Brooks who is an amazing writer and has written the book of people and many other books and this is literally about a horse. And the slave that is both the caregiver and the jockey um back in the civil war days and is also extremely interesting and it's a true story and then the last one is the invisible life of Addie Larue
02:02.99
loriejones7
Sounds fascinating.
02:13.25
Estelle Harris
Which is completely different than the other two written by ve schwabs and it is about a woman in 1714 pure fiction who um makes a deal with a soul I guess is how you'd say it and she. Lives for a very very long time and most people um, can't remember her and so every interaction is new. Um, and it's a very interesting book about identity and what people really want and I also would really suggest that read.
02:40.33
loriejones7
Um, oh that's interesting.
02:46.25
loriejones7
Oh those some like really good suggestions and all lot of my I I tend to focus on like you know books that have to do with my profession and. Every once in a while especially when I'm on vacation or at the beach I Really like something that has nothing at all to do with Finance. So I'm going to pick those up.
03:04.75
Estelle Harris
Um, none of these are really quick and easy reads. But they're all very good.
03:08.80
loriejones7
Um, thank you thanks for the suggestions. So can you tell me just a little bit about your journey. How did you get where you are today where how your path um evolve what do you kind of? do um, what made you decide to do what you do just. A little bit about that.
03:28.18
Estelle Harris
So um I grew up mostly in Colorado just outside of Denver in 1 of the suburbs. Um, one of 4 children and I have a father who is both a physician and a little darwin and that he was. Quite the collector of many things including butterflies rocks plants orchids yeah, the list can go on but so I spent a lot of time with nature and animals growing up but I always knew I wanted to be in the sciences and in some way helping.
04:01.14
loriejones7
Is it.
04:01.82
Estelle Harris
Um, people so having grown up spending a lot of time riding horses hiking camping doing a lot of activities I went to college in California with no. Real concept of where I'd end up except I thought maybe it would be either like pre-veeterinarian pre-medicine or something like ghostinography. So I I knew I'd be in the sciences but it was very broad and by the time I graduated which included the coolest semester broad where I was able to be on a large.
04:25.81
loriejones7
This.
04:35.79
Estelle Harris
Three masted Square Rig barantine sailing vessel studying humpback whales. Um in the caribbean for credit that was pretty amazing is with the ocean research society which no longer exists. Um I decided that life at sea could be lonely and maybe I should. Come home and spend some time in the lab and get ready to go to medical school which is what I ultimately did um I then struggled for a number of years between doing straight medical school and a combined m b ph d with ah interest in immunology ultimately left the ph d program.
04:59.49
loriejones7
In.
05:13.95
Estelle Harris
Finished my medical degree did a residency in internal medicine a fellowship in pulmonary and critical care with many years back in the research lab and then as a junior faculty with a and nih young investigator award move just after my first child was about a year old to Utah with my husband where we have both been on faculty at the university and have been working since that time.
05:40.68
loriejones7
Oh my goodness it sounds like you didn't sleep for about ten or twenty years ah I I'm interested in and how you decided what like what made you choose.
05:43.21
Estelle Harris
I Still don't sleep a lot I do night calls at least twice a month and you know work long shift.
05:57.10
loriejones7
Um, people over animals because you had such a such an affinity it. It feels like with animals.
06:03.48
Estelle Harris
Um, I still do and I think I decided that on 1 level. It would be easier for me to um, do medicine because it is a little bit of a conveyor belt with options and it's very. You kind of choose as you go I want to do internal medicine and then you say what? an internal medicine. Do I want to do and I knew that that would give me probably the time and resources to still be able to do my animal passions and so I still ride and show horses at this point my life in addition to doing medicine. That's my outside passion which I think.
06:27.97
loriejones7
Oh oh.
06:37.89
Estelle Harris
Anybody who's going to work as hard as any of the people you probably interview on this podcast. There has to be something other than just work and family. That's your passion and mine happens to be riding and showing horses so that is probably why and I knew several veterinarians at the time who spent so much time working.
06:47.89
loriejones7
Um, is it.
06:57.63
Estelle Harris
Um, that they didn't have a lot of time to ride plus in veterinary medicine only about a 1 in 100 vets go into large animals and that's probably where when it ended up so it probably would have been a very hard journey. Not not that my journey hasn't been hard. But.
07:04.45
loriejones7
And her.
07:15.40
Estelle Harris
I Think helping people every day and then getting to ride horses is is the perfect combination for me.
07:19.28
loriejones7
So when you were choosing which specialty you wanted to go in. You were thinking really carefully about the balance that you wanted to have in your life.
07:28.78
Estelle Harris
I Wish any of my life was that well thought out um I am a little bit of a odd duck in that I could not choose between surgery and medicine. So I actually listed in my interviews. Both.
07:39.73
loriejones7
Um.
07:45.85
Estelle Harris
Types of programs I interviewed him both and on my match list which is done nationwide and not very often I had both general surgery programs and internal medicine programs. But by that point I had put the internal medicine programs at the top. Critical care is one of the few fields where you can be from Anesthesia from general surgery from internal medicine emergency medicine or neurology or neurosurgery and still working and I see you so on some level I must have known that but would have never predicted that at that time.
08:19.24
loriejones7
That's so interesting I like that that you had so many options open to you when you were kind of trying to choose and that you you managed to settle in one that that had ah it that still had some movement to it.
08:30.85
Estelle Harris
Yeah, and you you have lots of time along the way to choose and when people do choose wrong. They usually can redirect themselves and and choose again and I would say most people can't tell you necessarily why they chose the field they did but most people are really passionate and love their.
08:49.58
loriejones7
Yeah, that's cool. Yeah.
08:49.91
Estelle Harris
Um, area of Medicine Mine is a non-surgical One. So I mostly take care of either post-opertive patients where I did not do the surgery or medically Ill patients that have diabetes Pneumonia a bad infection Covid 19 you know various. Like that. So Um I was I'm glad to see it have decreased the numbers.
09:10.89
loriejones7
Um, oh yeah, that that you must have been super busy during Covid huh.
09:17.71
loriejones7
So tell me a little bit about an investment that you might have made in yourself along this journey was there something that you can look back on and say I am so glad I did that it made all the difference in where I'm at today.
09:34.14
Estelle Harris
Um, I Really can't um, other than I I learned very early on that you you can be hard on yourself. But at the same time you have to give yourself space to not know. What you want to do or or how you want to do it and to focus on and enjoy the journey. Um, and so I always tried to take care of myself get enough rest put boundaries between not that I didn't do fun things. But.
09:56.69
loriejones7
Yeah.
10:09.48
Estelle Harris
Protecting my time to study or to rest after taking care of patients and I was able to put probably mental health fairly high I am probably like most people that are high achieving had some anxiety and.
10:18.70
loriejones7
Okay.
10:27.80
Estelle Harris
Was always a little bit worried about it and probably waited too long, but finally after I had shown that I could be a young faculty person and have two kids and actually do everything I'm like okay now maybe we can make this a little bit easier and I. Did discuss with and start myself on a medication I'm on prozac for anti-anxiety and I want to give everybody permission along their journey to pursue what they need to whether it's exercise which I do medication diet.
10:48.65
loriejones7
Ah.
10:58.93
Estelle Harris
Mental Health counseling so that they can actually not stress everything worry less realize that as long as you get everything done at the end of the day. Whatever works for you needs to work and give yourself a little permission to be. You know who you are and take care of yourself.
11:17.40
loriejones7
I really like that you said that because I've interviewed a lot of women and they do tend to put a ton of pressure on themselves and feel like they have to get everything done and have to show up at a 10 in every area of their life and they. Struggle and quite frankly I do too with that balance piece. So how did you know that you wanted to to start out with that balance is kind of a priority in your life.
11:46.78
Estelle Harris
Um I don't know that I did and I'm still not great at it. But I think it's really important because if you don't take care of yourself. You you can't take care of everyone else and yes I would come home exhausted and be exhausted with the kids. But I also had a lot of very.
11:56.46
loriejones7
This is.
12:04.77
Estelle Harris
You know, fun activities and and time with them and I just think you have to give yourself permission. You can't just do work at work and home at home and if you can get it all done. That's usually what you need to do and at the end of the day if you can't get it all done or you're not perfect in all areas you need to be kind to yourself.
12:20.47
loriejones7
Oh I really like that idea because because sometimes you can't get it all done sometimes you just you're like today was not the day so tell me a little bit about Did you get any. Really bad advice and if you did what did you take it did you not take it did you learn something from it.
12:45.13
Estelle Harris
Um, so I'm not sure if I have a selective memory or just a bad memory I'm not sure I really ever got bad advice and the thing that always drives me crazy is when someone says and I've even given bad advice but they say you know this person told me this and. They were wrong and I think that's great, but think about all the people who probably were your mentors and cheerleaders and told you something that you could apply and that would be good and so I think you really have to you know invest in yourself. Um, give yourself. Permission to not know everything and then be kind and work hard and really take advantage of your mentors and they won't always give you perfect advice I can remember 1 time My mentor said well. Um, it's Great. You want all that. But for somebody in your position. That's not normally how I would mentor you and I'm like that's fine I'll go on the remedial track and we'll do it together but this is what I need to be successful in the lab at this point and he was one of the best mentors and I just in preparation for this read back. On a letter I'd written to him about how amazing he was and even though when I would write a proposal or a grant or a paper would come back filled with blue ink from all of his corrections. Um I learned so much about how to think how to write and how to ask questions. Um, and so I I think rather than.
14:13.49
loriejones7
And.
14:18.40
Estelle Harris
Take and say oh that was bad. Advice is come back with well maybe I need something different or more than that and if you can somehow advocate for what you need or how you learn that's probably going to help you more than anything.
14:29.62
loriejones7
Yeah I like that thought and is there a way to that You could tell because you know a lot of times when you're young and you're getting advice from a mentor someone who's further down the path and you you kind of want to take it right? You you. Feel like well I don't know as much as they know they probably know something but you didn't you stood up for yourself and said well this is kind of this is what I need can you help me with what I need.. How do you?? How did you navigate that How did you know and and be able to do that.
15:00.15
Estelle Harris
Um, I mean I think he he's a non imp imposing really really bright, really patient. Nice guy and his name is actually guy but probably more of what I learned from him and I this is going to sound weird I'm going to say the little things matter and these are not the little details. He was really good at.
15:07.50
loriejones7
Ah.
15:18.52
Estelle Harris
Sending an email or a postcard that was handwritten with a little bit of encouragement or you know good work and and and help you get that confidence you need and then he would also know enough about you.
15:23.36
loriejones7
In.
15:35.12
Estelle Harris
Um, to care about what your interests were and so he'd send little clippings about various aspects of science or butterflies or horses and every once in a while you know, even though it was off topic at work just to kind of show me um, he cared and he's been retired for several years and I still get a postcard of a horse every year on my birthday.
15:48.23
loriejones7
Um, oh what? a blessing.
15:54.17
Estelle Harris
So I mean the little things really do matter and mentors can show you the way without necessarily giving you life changing advice by showing you how to live not necessarily telling you how? yeah.
16:07.67
loriejones7
Um, what a kind man how that that must have been a blessing in your life.
16:12.30
Estelle Harris
Yeah, he's been one of my most favorite people.
16:16.35
loriejones7
So looking back if there's a situation that you can think of where you're like oh I Really wish I had done that differently and if I could go back Again. Knowing what I know now I would do it differently and it's not maybe less regret and more. Learning experience. But.
16:36.72
Estelle Harris
Um, this particular example I thought of after knowing this was a possible question um was one that I actually thought about and I feel terrible about but I think I bring it up more again to show everybody that we really are just human.
16:51.38
loriejones7
Since.
16:53.68
Estelle Harris
So I was still in Michigan at the university of Michigan finishing up my first year of faculty and submitting a early career and Nih Grant it's called a k award and it was due in October and my child was born in June. Um, west was still a little baby and unfortunately I needed my husband more for the proof reading and helping me with how to submit in the figures than I thought I needed him for child care and so he and I spent the whole weekend holed up in the lab. Getting this done and we took Wes my child. It is little carsy to work with us and the only thing I didn't appreciate was that he was pretty sick and had a fever and yes we gave him tylenol and food but he really was not thriving in the lab environment and 1 of my husband's colleagues said. Um, I'm a dad I have kids you mind if I just take them home for a few hours and you know let them rest and and do everything while you guys finish this up and we did get the grant done. We did go back and retrieve our child.
17:59.57
loriejones7
Here.
18:05.58
Estelle Harris
I submitted it the next morning and then immediately went to the pediatrician to find out that he had a terrible ear infection and that's why he was sick. He got treated he recovered fine I probably would still do my science.
18:10.53
loriejones7
Oh poor honey.
18:20.74
Estelle Harris
But it just showed you How hard it is to balance. You never want to put a child at risk um and yet at that moment you know I did let somebody else help take care of him while I could get the grant I'm finished So it's an embarrassing moment but it also kind of showed How the whole family came together.
18:23.71
loriejones7
Okay.
18:37.74
Estelle Harris
To make sure that we helped each other.
18:37.82
loriejones7
Yeah I Think that's yeah you know I I have a lot of mom guilt sometimes for you know, being out of the house or working so often and I don't know a single professional woman who doesn't feel that that has kids and I like that. That you brought up the fact that there's it Sometimes it takes a village like sometimes you really do need to count on people who can help you and and learn to be okay with that.
19:10.94
Estelle Harris
You have to forgive yourself and clearly I wasn't the only one that felt bad. My husband who was also helping me and was also a caregiver you know didn't really realize how sick he was either so we counted as a learning experience. Um, but but clearly you know you don't want anything to happen.
19:25.50
loriejones7
But it sounds like he was okay and he's probably pretty proud of both mom and dad for their accomplishment. So what's if you could go back and talk to yourself at.
19:31.16
Estelle Harris
Yeah, he's he's growing now and he's a great kid.
19:42.24
loriejones7
20 years old you know when you first started out on your journey. Is there anything you would tell that that younger woman.
19:50.98
Estelle Harris
Um, worry less I think we all spend a lot of time. What am I going to be when I grow up what if I don't get into this college. What if I.
20:02.10
Estelle Harris
Don't work out more.. What about the fact that I'm at the best lacrosse but whatever the situation is I think we all stress and at the end of the day I think you want to volunteer you want to spend time with people you want to be honest and open. Again, Mentors are priceless so look for them at all levels um of your life and they can be friend Mentors Family Mentors school work. Um, lots of times I would have professors or this actually happened in high school. College and again in medical school as you're getting ready to the next thing I remember they sat me down and um I had some learning difficulties. Probably not the best student but they would always say that's okay, you have many other things going for you and I'd always say well. What are those things tell me and and I think the point is is. Is if you are a real-rounded person and you are interested and you know do a lot and are involved and um, give and do all the things that you know is a great thing for a young person to do. You're going to still make it. You may not follow the textbook you you may not have. Everything that they say on paper but there's more to everybody as you're entering your field in your career and you know common sense in the end gets to count for a lot too and so definitely worry less. Um, have more growth opportunities and give yourself time to explore and.
21:35.00
Estelle Harris
Don't be so hard on yourself.
21:37.51
loriejones7
I've heard that a lot of times to just you know that if we could go back and talk to our younger selves. We'd give ourselves a little bit of grace say don't worry as much. Don't don't stress as much it's going to work out.
21:50.36
Estelle Harris
And I think the other thing is is don't work so hard to please everybody else. You know I'm sure you and many of us did a lot of things to please our parents and at the end of the day you know we also need to please ourselves and so you know I think coming into and.
21:56.75
loriejones7
That's good. Yeah.
22:04.71
loriejones7
And.
22:10.13
Estelle Harris
Letting yourself grow and get to know yourself is probably as important as any other part of growing up.
22:14.33
loriejones7
I agree I think that a lot of times or at least I felt this when I was going to college that you basically needed to know what you were going to be and who you were going to be and what you were going to do like day. 1 You know the question was always what are you majoring in what you know What's your trajectory and I never knew. I didn't know day one i.
22:33.62
Estelle Harris
And I don't think you need to I think that that's you know one of the myths everybody learns at a different pace and you may not find yourself during freshman week. It may be senior week. It may be.
22:46.80
loriejones7
Yeah, yeah, maybe a little while after that even right? So um, we were talking just a little bit about the the fact that the. Medical profession has welcomed more women over the years and that it's in some disciplines. It's closer to a fifty fifty with male and female talk to me a little bit about how you've seen. Um, how you've seen things change since you started and now.
23:17.80
Estelle Harris
Yeah, so even in my medical school class which was University Colorado many moons ago I think there there were more women in that class than there had been historically but clearly throughout medicine whether it's. In the train phases or later in academics the specialties that are like general surgery or intensive care or pulmonary or cardiology gi e and t at list can go on have clearly been more male dominated. Um, than female dominated and clearly when you look at the academic levels of assistant professor associate professor and then full professor. There are clearly fewer and fewer women at each one of those steps that has changed over time and gotten better I think. Partly because I think everyone's just more aware of first of all that there shouldn't be stereotypes and more welcoming and there's been a lot of growth and gender. Um, and I just think over the years women. Have wanted to do it and and continue to do it and 1 of the things I'm very proud about it locally is when I joined the pulmonary division in 9096 I was the third woman out of about 20 faculty members at that point today were significantly over twice as big as we were at least at that point.
24:50.53
Estelle Harris
And at least or more than 50% of the people in the pulmonary critical care division and occupational health at this point are women many of whom trained under me and I don't know that I necessarily was the influence but they said oh this is something I can do and even more amazing is many of our women. You know.
24:55.93
loriejones7
I have.
25:08.22
Estelle Harris
Do have kids and families and have been able to continue to work and raise amazing kids and do a lot and I think it's just become a more open and welcoming field. It's not always easy.
25:22.14
loriejones7
Ah.
25:23.86
Estelle Harris
Um, but it's a lot more open and I think that's true of a lot of fields I'm sure that was true in financial aspects as well.
25:30.71
loriejones7
Yeah, yeah, we we do represent a small group in financial services of still only 20%. So so we're still Navigating. Um, we have women come in into the industry but then they leave because they can't. Seem to navigate that raising kids or taking care of people as women are primary caretakers in a lot of instances. So How has the medical profession kind of adjusted to that and helped them so that they don't have to quit.
26:01.25
Estelle Harris
Um, I think they have all the same stressors there. You know it's hard for me to speak everybody I know has done it differently. Some people just have 2 working spouses that share. That's what I was lucky enough to have people have family people have nannies I don't think it's easy by any means.
26:14.85
loriejones7
Um, and.
26:18.71
Estelle Harris
And the 1 thing I'd say is is as you're choosing your partner in the world as you grow up if you do want to have a significant time commitment of both career and family finding someone who's going to share that with you is is going to make a very big difference.
26:33.80
loriejones7
Here.
26:35.21
Estelle Harris
Um, very but much not like my mother who was the primary caregiver and my father who worked we did a lot of tag your it or going to pick up the kids and then having them sit. And the little conference room while I rounded in the icu in the evening until my husband was done and able to come pick them up and take them home. Um, my kids have many memories of having to go places and activities with me rather than always doing the opposite of me just going with my kids but.
26:56.53
loriejones7
Um.
27:07.42
Estelle Harris
We figured it Out. We Carpooled. We got everybody all their activities and you really have to share it and at the end of the day they may not have to be your family. Our family did not live locally but you will need a village which will include you know someone from your daycare who maybe can be on call and be your babysitter. Maybe a really good friend who loves to spend time with your kids. Maybe another family where you travel together and share responsibilities. But it's going to take a village. You cannot do it alone.
27:34.19
loriejones7
Yeah I like that I like that idea and and it seems like they're being um, women and men are kind of working around that fact that they need these other they need the village they need the people to call in in case, they you know, get in a bind. And and helping each other out in that situation.
27:50.86
Estelle Harris
Yeah, and you know it's it's hard I'm also in Utah where there's still a lot of you know, gender roles and stereotypes. But at least it seems like most people I know that are still working and doing medicine figure it out. Choose a career. You know you don't have to be a critical care physician you can do primary care with more daytime hours. But I think at the end of the day. No matter what you're going to work really hard. But I always thought staying home might be harder. So.
28:18.50
loriejones7
Yeah, yeah, it sounds like it either way. Ah, but well I spent the first half of my career staying home and I feel like it was hard some some days I'm like just please can I just go to work.
28:29.30
Estelle Harris
I Think there's no perfect and everybody has to figure out out how to work it out and the 1 thing I can say is a lot of interest groups with the younger faculty and physicians and I'm sure Inyfield's spent a lot of time worrying about how to juggle child care. And raising kids and I do want to remind them that that's only going to be a small blip on your field of life and you know those same kids that you used to watch are now the ones that get to go dog sit for me when I'm on call at night and I can't be there or you know get to go to lectures with me. So.
29:03.82
loriejones7
Really.
29:05.92
Estelle Harris
You know it it does change as you get older and at at different times you will have different concerns.
29:12.12
loriejones7
Ah, um, you that it is a balance. It's always a balance and sometimes your career takes a little bit more effort and sometimes your family takes a little bit more effort. Yeah.
29:18.51
Estelle Harris
Yeah, but it doesn't have to be fifty fifty or separate. It's it's whatever it takes to make it work.
29:27.64
loriejones7
Yeah I like that What um did you face any unique challenges because you were a woman.
29:39.51
Estelle Harris
I Don't know if it was so much necessarily by sex or personality I am outgoing I am Stubborn. Um I don't know if demanding is the right word but I do want a lot from the people I train and supervise and a lot of those. Would be I guess more characteristically mail traits and so I've taken my share of being in trouble for being a micromanager or being too demanding and all I can say is that I always try to work just as hard as I want everybody else to and you know.
30:07.63
loriejones7
And.
30:16.90
Estelle Harris
I try to teach more by example than by word and expectation.
30:20.65
loriejones7
That maybe you got a certain label or demanding where in in a different colleague of a different gender. It might have been called Authoritarian you know. A good trait or considered something.
30:38.22
Estelle Harris
Yeah, but I think there's there's enough personalities and enough people in medicine that you know all types are are really considered and I've never really felt like a door was shut or an option did not exist because of my gender.
30:49.24
loriejones7
He.
30:54.68
loriejones7
So Dr Harris if you can look back. What is a thing you are most proud of.
31:05.26
Estelle Harris
Um, I Really think that it's probably the people who I have supervised trained and mentored and got to watch them from being I don't want to call them baby doctors that's kind of unfortunate, but younger.
31:11.55
loriejones7
Listen.
31:20.37
Estelle Harris
Nervous less experienced not in relationships and stuff and gut and to watch them not only grow in their personal life but also their professional life in their community life and in their family life and many of the trainees who i. Watched and trained as I first came or now my colleagues and are working with me I have a group that started at 4 and has grown to 22 advanced care practitioners nurse practitioners and physician assistants that work and help us in the icu that I'm in charge of.
31:41.58
loriejones7
E.
31:55.65
Estelle Harris
And they have grown into being some of the most remarkable adults and parents and teachers at the school nursing or the Pa school or doing their Ph D in research and they're just amazing people. So having helped train and mentor them may actually be even. More enjoyable than being the mentee you you get to? you know, help them and then get to enjoy and interact with them when they become talented and independent.
32:26.25
loriejones7
Yeah, that's always ah, a big Um, that's an important thing for me as well to watch these this young talent grow and be a part of that That's and do you.
32:36.47
Estelle Harris
He is.
32:39.70
loriejones7
Find yourself doing some of the same things that your mentor did with you because I know he was a big influence.
32:45.98
Estelle Harris
I Have to say I'm not good at the handwritten note I have tried at various times I do try to be encouraging and you know definitely approach the little things but I'm going to say you know it's hard.
32:50.51
loriejones7
Um.
33:02.84
loriejones7
You take your own path. Ah yeah I love that I do I Really do love the idea of growing and helping and developing. Um it it feels like.
33:04.25
Estelle Harris
Yeah I mean you you end up being who you are you? you take things from everyone.
33:18.63
loriejones7
Your family gets a little bit bigger as you help these others grow inside their profession.
33:23.14
Estelle Harris
And you know I I love that you know I get to work with people of all different ages. You know from patients to my nurses. It takes a team so in an Icu situation.
33:33.51
loriejones7
Um.
33:37.73
Estelle Harris
The Physician is just one small part. There's all of your nurses.. There's the other providers. There is students. There is respiratory therapists physical I mean it is It is a team sport and there's lots of people. And I don't know what I would do if I was in a job where it was just me in the desk every day I think that would be very hard.
33:57.91
loriejones7
Ah, well I'm an introvert and I like my spreadsheets but I do miss people sometimes so so if you had if you could go back and and talk to a young lady who's just starting down her path one that you've already been down for several years um and are quite successful at how could you? What advice would you give her to help her be one day where you're at.
34:24.61
Estelle Harris
Um, don't let the pressure and all of the worry you know, affect you? um, really live life as an experience. Um, another one of my mentors who was my division chief trainee when I was a fellow at Michigan. Would um, first of all figure out a little bit about you and your spouse and then supposedly he would decide you know where you were going to end up and how you're going to train and and he described everything as forks in the road but he would always say it really isn't the fork you take.
34:52.48
loriejones7
M.
34:58.77
Estelle Harris
But the journey that you take once you're on that path and so you really I think goals are great. But if you just say I want to be X when I grow up and you wait those number of years. You're probably both going to find out at the end that it's not quite what you thought and. What's really important is your journey and all of the people and places that you get to go and interact with and help along the way and so I think you have to really enjoy the process and not always just stress over the moment where you are and how that reflects on the next step of your. Career.
35:37.32
loriejones7
I Yeah I think that's a lovely idea just that I as a young mom I had a lot of kids and um it was always you know there was always a sense Well when they sleep through the night then I'll be happy Well when they. You know, go to school then I can be happier when they do this then then things will go. Okay, if you're always waiting for that Next thing you forget to enjoy where you're at now I Love that thought.
36:00.86
Estelle Harris
And then probably grit and tenacity like the end of the day just being there showing up and surviving in many situations put you further down the road than anybody else. So.
36:18.50
loriejones7
Any Ah, any advice on on coming up with that grit somewhere deep inside you.
36:22.23
Estelle Harris
I mean I think it's just there when you want to do something and you're passionate and stubborn. You're gonna stick around and get it done and then something that I'm not very good at but is also important, especially as you get older is learning how to say no. You can't be on every committee. You can't be the one that volunteers to cover everybody else. You know at some point you do have to say no.
36:49.26
loriejones7
Yeah, or else you lose that balance that you're talking about you lose the ability to to play with your horses or to to have that time for recharging.
37:02.55
Estelle Harris
So But and you know again, you know it's as much about everybody around you as it is you know you and all the people that you get to learn from and interact and so it's It's really just it's a journey. And I think we don't realize that when we're younger.
37:23.67
loriejones7
Would you go back and do it again. Would you make the same choices and end up where you are today.
37:28.79
Estelle Harris
Absolutely I know that people say oh you say that and it truly recently my daughter who I don't know that I expected would decided she wanted to grow up and be a doctor and still doesn't know what she wants to be but when she was applying to and going to medical school. You know that's what people would ask Well should you tell her to do the same.. What do you think and you know I think Medicine's going to be very different in her world than it was in my world or it was in my dad's world. But if you want to always be learning and helping people and.
37:56.29
loriejones7
Listen.
38:05.50
Estelle Harris
You know it isn't always about making the patient Better. It might be having the family and patient come to terms and then making the end of life as as good as you can. But if if you're doing things and you enjoy It. You're going to make it work. So Even though you know things have changed and we have lots of reasons to be politically. With angst and concern of the world in the climate at all times I still think Medicine's been an amazing career I've met the most incredible people and the patients are you know what really makes it happen and I would not change. It.
38:38.98
loriejones7
Oh well, That's so neat. It's neat that your daughter is following in your footsteps.
38:43.91
Estelle Harris
Or my husband's we don't know what she's gonna do.
38:49.60
loriejones7
Ah, one or the other. Well thank you so much Dr. has for giving me some time today if if I have listeners that want to learn more about you or ask questions where can they find you.
39:01.48
Estelle Harris
Um I am on the website for the university of Utah um I think my email's available and I would be more than happy often if people are interested in medicine one of the first things they do and. It doesn't just have to be a doctor again. There's nurses physician assistants all these other things is you shadow somebody who who does a similar job and you get to see what they do and and what a capsulated day or a moment in their life looks like and I'm always happy to let young people be facilitated. And doing that or finding people who they can meet in shadow and learn from.
39:35.94
loriejones7
Oh that's so kind. Thank you for spending the time with me and and being so thoughtful and and taking me time to help our listeners learn about you. Thanks.
39:47.50
Estelle Harris
Well thank you very very much.
39:51.19
loriejones7
Okay.