Welcome to Fearless Females, the podcast celebrating ambitious women who break boundaries and redefine success. Today, we have a powerhouse guest—Elizabeth Espinosa Krupa, a trailblazing attorney and community advocate!
From her childhood dream of becoming a lawyer to founding her own law firm, Elizabeth’s journey is packed with resilience, ingenuity, and powerful life lessons. Prepare to be inspired as she shares her strategies for overcoming challenges, staying true to oneself, and harnessing emotional intelligence in a competitive field.
Show Highlights:
- The power of fearless vocational seeds planted in children. [00:03:11]
- Consider how to effectively redirect negative advice. [00:11:44]
- How women lawyers can gain seats on corporate boards. [00:15:33]
- Do women need male personas in male-dominated fields? [00:22:07]
- Shatter the self-limiting belief of forever career paths. [00:24:47]
- Learn fun tips to develop intentional emotional flexibility. [00:27:52]
- Explore the way-maker role of EQ when facing fears. [00:35:09]
- A new slant on controlling the upshot if sexually harassed. [00:39:01]
- Unlock secrets to turning conflict into cooperation. [00:42:49]
- Why finding your tribe is important as a young woman. [00:46:45]
If you enjoyed this episode, please go to Apple Podcasts and leave a review!
For more information about Lorie Jones, go to http://fearless-females.com/
00:01.96
loriejones7
Good morning. So we are here today with Elizabeth Espinoza-Krupa. She is an attorney and community leader. And I'm so excited to get to chat with you today, Elizabeth. Thank you so much for doing this for us. I'm really excited to hear about your journey.
00:17.17
Liz Krupa
Thank you, happy to be here.
00:19.80
loriejones7
So I always start out with the same question. And honestly, my book list has just gotten out of control since I started asking this question. But tell me, I am an avid reader. What is your favorite book?
00:31.42
Liz Krupa
So it sounds weird, but one of my favorite authors is Janet Ivanovic, and she has a series that's called the Stephanie Plum series. And Stephanie Plum's character is a former lingerie buyer for like a big department store in New Jersey and kind of loses her job as she loses her husband and ends up am living kind of in this crazy little area that she calls the burg. And she becomes a bail bondsman um person to pick up people that have failed to appear. And she's a petite little brunette, but just her family and the description of her family dynamics and the love interests and
01:11.92
Liz Krupa
Her best friend is a former prostitute. it I love the series for some reason. it just I giggle and I can read the book literally in a few hours. So that's my that's my favorite book series.
01:21.98
loriejones7
um
01:23.85
Liz Krupa
It's like my guilty escape. I love it.
01:27.03
loriejones7
i love I have those myself for sure. The Bridgerton series just came out on the ah what Netflix or whatever it's on. And yeah, I'll have to admit that was my guilty pleasure years ago.
01:35.98
Liz Krupa
Right.
01:40.02
loriejones7
So we all have those, don't we?
01:44.15
Liz Krupa
Yes, definitely.
01:46.08
loriejones7
So tell me a little bit about your journey, Liz. you Where you started, kind of how how you got where you're at today, and kind of what do you do? Just tell me a little bit about that.
01:58.57
Liz Krupa
So my, I'm a Colorado native, and both of my parents worked for the city and county of Denver. My father was a Denver sheriff. And when my sister and I have an older sister, just the two of us, where little my dad took us to like the city jail or the county lockup and put us in a cell and shut the door and said, if you ever get in trouble, I will leave you here overnight so that you can think about the choices that you made. I'll come and get you out and I'll help you, but you're going to have to sit. And he left and he probably barely walked out of the room, but we like cried.
02:33.20
loriejones7
Mm.
02:34.08
Liz Krupa
We were so scared and he would take me into court. And I think I was about seven years old when he took me into court, maybe a little older. And I just, I was like, I want to be a lawyer. And from then on, everything I did in my path was to go to law school. Now what I did in law school changed, but, um, that was the path to becoming a lawyer. And both of of my parents were pretty. good about community service and giving back to your community. So they really encouraged me in, you know, high school to do student government to give back to the community. Same thing in college. So I've just kind of always been involved in community efforts and community advocacy. So that was part of that as well.
03:17.77
loriejones7
I love it. So you, do you work as an attorney right now as well as all the extras? Like that sounds like two full-time jobs to me.
03:27.79
Liz Krupa
Yes, i there's some part of me that is much better and more effective when I'm super busy. So yes, I have my own law firm um and do mostly criminal defense. I do some securities work because I worked for the SEC for a long time. And I do some regulate regulated license ah issues when lawyers are accused of misconduct or licensed professionals. I try to help them navigate that.
03:53.06
loriejones7
here
03:53.22
Liz Krupa
I get hired to do a lot of kind of interesting work, but criminal defense has always been a passion. I love it. And that's the majority of what I do. But the other board appointments that I have and boards that I serve on, I enjoy very much.
04:08.53
loriejones7
A little bit of of just um fill your bucket sort of work where you kind of um give back to the communities that you live in. So do you love being a lawyer as much as you thought you would when you were seven years old? Like like I have never met anyone that knew what they were going to be at seven years old and I'm fascinated by this.
04:30.47
Liz Krupa
So i um when I went to undergrad, I did a bachelor's in international studies. And when I went into law school, I was still doing international law. I really thought I would go kind of that route and do some multinational corporate work and then try the ambassador route. And my first job out of law school was at a multinational corporation and I was bored to death. It was meeting after meeting where nothing got advanced and I am not the person that can sit through hours long meeting without a goal and some kind of achievement moving forward.
05:05.84
loriejones7
Mm
05:05.97
Liz Krupa
so I was, I was clerking for a judge, uh, for a while. And that's how I got introduced to the public defender system in Colorado, which is statewide. It's a great system. And I was a mock juror for them. And then they invited me to kind of come on board and I loved it from the minute I walked into court. I absolutely loved it. It was terrifying, but I loved it. They basically handed me like a hundred case files and we're like, there's the courtroom.
05:29.12
loriejones7
hmm.
05:29.23
Liz Krupa
Good luck. But I, I love it. And maybe because I've kind of swapped around different types of law. not staying in one stagnant place that I've really enjoyed it. And I got great advice when I was a young lawyer to take cases in as many jurisdictions as possible. So right now my practice is kind of all over Colorado. But even when I was at the SEC and kind of traveling everywhere to try cases, that was was great. It was a great experience.
05:59.11
loriejones7
Well, that's great. I love it. i I love that you knew where you wanted to go and you just focused on it and you and you made it happen. That's that's huge. what about Tell me about an investment that you made in yourself. is there Is there an investment that you can say, oh my gosh, I am so glad looking back that I really did that. It made me who? who I am today.
06:24.73
Liz Krupa
So I think one of the things that I did, and this was kind of recent. I mean, I think um you know student government definitely helped. My dad was a big proponent of girls doing sports because he thought it would make us more athletic and not as worried about our bodies or at least proud and strong in our bodies. And maybe not focus on boys all the time. I mean, that part didn't work out as boy crazy for years. but um You know, I think part of that, you know, swimming and getting accolades and things like that, student government really helped. I think a lot of that kind of helped in my development as a leader and leadership skills and communication skills. um The public defender's office in Denver has a week-long
07:12.10
Liz Krupa
boot camp where you have to try a case in front of your peers and kind of all of the leaders in the state. And that's that was kind of, you know, it's daunting to do things like that. But I think the more I've done things like that in my life, the more I have found that confidence and voice in my own style. um But recently I did, recently we're talking like pre-pandemic maybe. um Funny how everything is defined by that these days.
07:35.66
loriejones7
Let's listen.
07:38.74
Liz Krupa
But I went and did a corporate board training. And I was a little nervous about it and a little intimidated when I met all of the other women in the room. They were you know people that practiced all over the world. Huge companies had raised so much capital more than I ever have for the companies and everything I've worked with. So I felt a little bit of imposter syndrome. and ah wow I thought, wow, these women are all C-suite. And they're like, well, you are too. You started your own law firm. You run all these things. like You're an executive. But I had a little bit of imposter syndrome. And by the end of that program, um we did kind of a mock board. And I was the chairman and CEO. And I had to go to all the different committee meetings. And a lot of the women didn't know what those committees did or you know how to really do boards. And I had done enough of that work.
08:30.98
Liz Krupa
that it really, you know I felt like, okay, you need to get over this. you can you know Not only do you know how to run a board meeting in every single committee and every you know pro and con, um but you're you're able and ready to do this. So that's one investment that I've made most recently that really did help with really just, again, that confidence building.
08:53.68
loriejones7
Well, and it sounds like Liz, you've been actually working on that investment for years and years and years as you've been on these community boards and and working in this space that, you know, kind of filled the passion and helped you give back to your community, but it prepared you for that bigger opportunity.
09:11.80
Liz Krupa
hundred percent
09:15.86
loriejones7
And your dad sounds absolutely amazing.
09:18.44
Liz Krupa
100%. He was, he was a great man. He passed away from cancer when I was in law school. um But I, you know, he's, it's one of those things where, you know, people would talk about the devil on one side and the angel on the other on the shoulder. And like, you know, one side's telling you, you know, something and the other one's the voice of reason. That's my mom and dad, my mom is like the most walking angel on earth kind of person. She's always positive. She's always happy. Never say a negative word to anybody or about anyone. And not that my dad wasn't, but he was kind of brutally honest. You knew where you stood if he liked you, if he didn't like it. um He was just a very matter of fact person, but also a little bit of a rascal. So
10:01.10
Liz Krupa
You know, there were times that, you know, in my life I had some choices and I was like, well, I could do the reasonable thing or I could just go for it. And who knows? ah So I think I've got a little bit of both of them and hopefully my mom wins over more times than not, but it's good to be adventurous.
10:18.16
loriejones7
I love that your dad put in a cell. How old were you?
10:22.12
Liz Krupa
We were little, like, I don't even think I was double digits yet.
10:27.99
loriejones7
That's got to be one of the most, ah most impactful ways to teach that lesson that I can think of. So I think that's, like I think that's funny, actually, but I wasn't the one in the cell. So maybe
10:41.63
Liz Krupa
No, I mean, he he had plenty of those teaching moments as I was growing up.
10:46.73
loriejones7
I love it. I love that he encouraged you to it sounds like he was he was encouraging you to, you know, to not be so body conscious or to take, um take a lead and try something to be a little bit ah a little bit fearless.
11:03.49
Liz Krupa
Yeah, yeah, he was definitely that.
11:09.10
loriejones7
What about the worst advice? Can you think of someone or some advice that you got that was, you're like, oh, I'm glad I didn't take that advice. Or maybe you did take it and you learned something from it.
11:25.52
Liz Krupa
So um I had, I, when I, years ago, when I was interested in board service, I was um vice president of a national association. And we had worked with the National Association of Corporate Directors um and some security ah companies to do some training to set Latinos apart or at least help Latinos get some training to try to help them diversify boards, so and both public and private, but just try to help increase diversity on boards. And so we got a cybersecurity training.
12:05.24
Liz Krupa
And when I finished that training with NACD and the cybersecurity stuff, and this is years ago, I mean, this is, geez, probably 10 years ago, like before it was even kind of huge.
12:14.65
loriejones7
Mm hmm. Well.
12:17.50
Liz Krupa
So I did this program and when I finished, I had my little certificate and I, you know, felt like, okay, you know, now is the time to get out there and start talking to people about board work. So I went and talked with a CEO of a big um radio kind of media conglomerate. And he had been a very big proponent of women on boards and and diversifying boards. And I went to talk to him. And he kind of wrote on this whiteboard all of the reasons why it would be really difficult for me to get on a board, um not just as a lawyer, but with prior securities, um you know different issues like that.
12:58.93
Liz Krupa
they He had literally put up a bullet point of reasons why it would be really hard for me to get on a board. And he was like, I'm not trying to discourage you. I'm just trying to be honest, because you know there are lawyers on boards, but they're not lawyers with your experience. Somebody that's a litigator, worked at the SEC for 10 years, you know does all of this ethics work. um they're going to They should want you on their board, but they're going to be scared that you're going to ask questions, you're going to dig deep, you know all of these things that are kind of frightening. And he said, where you might get on a board is someone like Target when they had their breach or you know a company that's in trouble and publicly they want to look like they're fixing it.
13:37.69
Liz Krupa
So they'll put you on the board is like, you know oh, look what we did. We're so transparent. We're trying to make everything great.
13:44.44
loriejones7
Uh
13:44.77
Liz Krupa
And and then he you know he just said, I would be careful about that. I think you don't want to get put into that position. And so I kind of walked away from that, you know, with, you know, the tail between the legs kind of thing a little bit. And I was a little mad, not at him because I appreciate honesty 100%. But I just thought, you know, this, I think there are times where you're told no in your life and you either go, okay, you know, if this door is shut and I can't open it, I'll go around it.
14:09.72
loriejones7
-huh.
14:12.73
Liz Krupa
I'll find a different door. I'll do whatever. And ultimately I just thought, no, I'm going to use this as some motivation to try to push my way to keep doing this.
14:23.61
loriejones7
Mm hmm.
14:23.94
Liz Krupa
And I think now is a different time than it was back then. um I think with just the way our culture is today and massive mistrust and disinformation and um there's not as many public companies there as there used to be. There's just a big shift in what ah consumers want and how they want it. There's a big shift in leadership and management. that I think you know now might be a better time for me. So there were a lot of things that happened in between that kind of diverted me from that search, but I'm i i'm back on it.
15:05.50
loriejones7
I like that. So you took that advice realizing that it came from a good place and was valid or, you know, at least those were probably actual things you probably needed to worry about, but rather than saying, okay, this distress, okay, I'm going to take a different direction because that's obviously not going to happen. You're like, you evaluated it, but you said, okay, this is going to make me stronger. I'm going to figure out how to overcome this list of of problems he's put up.
15:36.19
loriejones7
Do you wish he hadn't a put up the problems for you or are you grateful that he he told you what might be an issue?
15:43.24
Liz Krupa
um I'm grateful that he did. I've talked to other women in in the legal community, like, you know, lawyers that have tried to get on boards and lawyers that have successfully gotten on boards, all women, and they were told the same thing. And we kind of talked about it because we all had different backgrounds. um But it was refreshing as well to talk to Um, some other people that just said, you know, Liz, it's not that you know, regulatory work or that you have, you know, this, um, recognition as an expert in ethics. It's really your ability to communicate, to problem solve, um, to think quickly, to be able to evaluate different sides. I mean, that's what a lawyer is. That's how your brain is taught.
16:30.43
Liz Krupa
Um, there's so much that just your education and experience bring to the table that board should appreciate. It's very different than MNA experience or HR or, um, it t or mining, right? But it's applicable in different fields. So it was, it's been good to have. Feedback to help me have a voice in my own value for that.
16:55.65
loriejones7
Yeah. And I probably, yeah, these are, you know, three or four things I need to worry about, but here's the strengths on this side, you know, the the value.
17:03.85
Liz Krupa
exactly I am and I hate to say this my son left my dog on my back deck and I need to let the dog in he's barking so give me one second
17:05.40
loriejones7
I like that. What about, I use this question, I say regrets. Do you look back on something and say, Oh, gosh, if I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't have done that. But I don't think it necessarily has to be a regret. Just something that you're like, oh, I would definitely do this differently if I could do it over again.
17:33.58
loriejones7
Okay, that's fine.
17:52.13
Liz Krupa
ah Let's see, regrets. i I think both professionally and personally, I don't really have like a massive type of regret. I can tell you that one thing that um I think significantly impacted me and changed things for me, not in a huge direction, but obviously, um A big thing was my late husband was diagnosed with cancer when he was 40. And it was a tumor in his spinal cord. So, you know, your spinal cord is like this. And it was kind of on both sides of the spinal cord between C2 and C5. So like right in his neck. And he became a quadriplegic and he was just an avid outdoor athlete. I mean, he would fly to South America and climb volcanoes and ski down them.
18:50.85
Liz Krupa
Um, just a phenomenal athlete, all around incredible person. Um, you know, love of my life, quit practicing a lot of stay home to raise our kids.
19:00.93
loriejones7
yeah.
19:01.00
Liz Krupa
And when he passed, um, even like while he was sick, cause it was just such a weird thing to go through.
19:04.39
loriejones7
Oh,
19:07.67
Liz Krupa
Our kids were seven and nine.
19:09.81
loriejones7
my goodness.
19:09.97
Liz Krupa
It was having to find a way to survive it, to live through it.
19:16.68
loriejones7
yeah.
19:16.85
Liz Krupa
And so I, um. I just kind of took on this philosophy, you know, kind of Zen, Buddhist, whatever you would call it, that I had to be present in every moment. I couldn't look back because I didn't want to live in the past and I couldn't look too far forward because, you know, when they you get a terminal diagnosis, you don't know when that is.
19:35.76
loriejones7
mm hmm.
19:38.51
Liz Krupa
And I, you know, every psychologist child psychologist was like, well, don't tell your kids, because if you tell them he's dying, they're going to think every minute, every day.
19:39.06
loriejones7
Yeah.
19:45.60
loriejones7
yeah
19:46.23
Liz Krupa
So I just kind of trained myself to be present in the moment and not, um you know, not really not really look too far ahead or behind. And I did that for so long that that's just kind of how I am. And, you know, after he passed, you know, the the kids were small and I needed the help of a huge community, which was great. um But, you know, and I had to work still. So, you know, we had family and friends that helped out and and things like that. and and i I needed some time for my own way of grieving and my own kind of outlet. And um I was blessed and lucky to have a large group of girlfriends then like I do now. And when my anniversary came around, my wedding anniversary, my girlfriends were like, no, we're going to go to Vegas. We're all going to go to Vegas. And a couple of them had enough miles that all of us sat in first class. So we're in first class sipping champagne. and
20:41.73
Liz Krupa
the stewardess comes over and she's like, so what are you guys celebrating? And they're like, oh, her anniversary. They're like, oh, without him? And like, nobody wanted to explain it.
20:52.26
loriejones7
Yeah.
20:53.38
Liz Krupa
But it was, you know, it was it was nice to have as a woman and a mom and ah whatever kind of a group to help me with me, because I was so focused on the kids and, you know, responsibilities and things like that, that it
21:05.07
loriejones7
here
21:11.62
Liz Krupa
It really, it was good for me to have that. Um, but there's times where I'm like, you know, geez, you know, I, I, I love my kids. I think they're great people. But I told them, I'm like, you know, all the money that I saved for college, if you don't use it all, use it for therapy. Cause I'm sure I screwed stuff up along the way. Not really sure that I managed all of that. Cause I remember my son telling me once. Well, both of them tell me all the time, they're like, you're just the strongest person I know. You know, you're like, you're just, you're like a strong metal. Like you don't break. And I'm like, well, I didn't let you see it.
21:43.58
Liz Krupa
You know, I i grieved plenty.
21:43.77
loriejones7
Yeah.
21:45.30
Liz Krupa
I was afraid if you saw me break down, that it would scare you. And I was trying not to do that. So there's things like that, that like now that they're, you know, 15, 20, 10 years, you know, past that they're like, well, wait a minute.
21:57.18
loriejones7
Yeah.
22:01.54
Liz Krupa
I'm like, Oh, okay. Note to self. maybe not the way to do it next time. So there's things like that that I'm like, oh, darn it.
22:07.98
loriejones7
i
22:10.41
Liz Krupa
um Try not to beat myself up about it. But there are those moments where I was like, huh, okay, well, what do we do write a book about, you know, how to deal with your spouse dying and raising your children. So
22:19.80
loriejones7
Yeah, yeah, really hard, ah hard, hard things to do, hard things for people to to help you through. And and I know that there's moments in my life where I look back and I'm like, I did the best I could. And yeah, they're just going to have to get therapy to help them out with the things that I couldn't figure out.
22:36.67
Liz Krupa
right great
22:39.06
loriejones7
But i i I do like the idea that you brought up that just sometimes as as strong professional women, and we do tend to look like we've got it all together all the time. you know and that's And at least in my case, maybe everyone else really does have it together all the time. But in my case, that is absolutely not true.
23:00.50
Liz Krupa
Great, great.
23:01.75
loriejones7
And I'm scared sometimes, and I'm vulnerable sometimes, and I don't know what I'm doing sometimes. And I think that um helping those others in our life, and and maybe not just our kids, but those that, you know, we're helping to mentor through.
23:17.26
Liz Krupa
Right, right.
23:17.87
loriejones7
the situation to say that, hey, yeah, we've had those times too. We've been scared. We don't know what to do sometimes. This is how we deal with it.
23:26.83
Liz Krupa
Well, and I think it's, you know, it's interesting. I i have some, some good friends that are, you know, are in law enforcement or in other, you know, fields that are male dominated. They always tell me, you know, you're like a guy. You just like how you act sometimes. And I said, well, I think that's partially my dad's, you know. um influence and partially the fact that I'm in a male dominated, you know, profession. um And I had to be both mom and dad. I don't, you know, I don't, it doesn't bum me out when people say that, but it's like, I think there are so many attributes that women have in strength um that are, you know, oh, that's so much like a man.
24:07.51
Liz Krupa
It's like, well, why can't we just be a strong woman? What do I have to be acting like a guy?
24:13.05
loriejones7
Yeah.
24:14.64
Liz Krupa
Hey,
24:16.12
loriejones7
yeah And I think I've found too that there are times when, you know, as ah I live and work in a male dominated profession as well. And so they do things differently than I would naturally do them.
24:28.05
Liz Krupa
Very.
24:29.62
loriejones7
And so I've tended towards, well, this is the way things are done because that's the way they've always been done. And I'm just starting to kind of to come into my own where I'm like, but that's not the way I authentically would do things. I'm going to It's just a little bit, be a little bit brave, try something new and different in that area.
24:45.72
Liz Krupa
Right.
24:48.10
loriejones7
and And there seems to be more space for that, more diversity on the boards that you're talking about, more women in these professions that are traditionally male-dominated, where we don't have to act like you know like it's been done for 20 years. like
25:03.83
Liz Krupa
Yep. And it's interesting because I think with some of the things that are happening you know in our world right now, kind of some of this Supreme Court decision, some of the pushback to diversity and inclusion efforts, different things like that, I think you know people are worried that that you know how the pendulum always swings, right? Like it'll swing one way and then it swings the other, that we're kind of in this path again where women are gonna start losing voices and losing positions and things like that. And I i understand it and I hear the concern.
25:38.37
Liz Krupa
um I just really think that when you live in the society that we do that is consumer driven, that there's always going to be a need for that voice that isn't predominantly men.
25:52.88
loriejones7
him
25:52.95
Liz Krupa
And I don't think that means takeover or you know equal numbers or any kind of initiative. I just think If you really want to have a successful business and you want to have retention, you want to have a good reputation, you want to have good leaders, it can just be one-sided.
26:10.02
loriejones7
Yeah, you've got to include lots of different voices, lots of different kinds of people from lots of different viewpoints.
26:17.36
Liz Krupa
Yes, definitely.
26:20.09
loriejones7
So if you could go back Liz and talk to your 20 year old self right at the beginning of your journey as you're starting out, is is there something you would tell her?
26:31.40
Liz Krupa
Um, you know, I, I think the only thing I would tell myself a little bit more, and I don't know necessarily at 20, I was trying to think 20. Um, I was in college and I was having the time of my life. So I don't, I don't know that, um, I thought college was amazing.
26:47.27
loriejones7
All right, 22, 24.
26:50.94
Liz Krupa
Um, even law school, even though it was hard, it wasn't like daunting. Um, but I, what I think sometimes of what I tell my mentees is really, you know you have to be true to who you are. And so you know there's a lot of different influences that try to tell you one way or the other.
27:09.16
loriejones7
Mm
27:12.07
Liz Krupa
I have a mentee now that I just finished a homicide trial and she sat through it with me. And she said her guidance counselor or whatever at college was trying to get her to be a professor and not go to law school, but she was really interested in being a lawyer.
27:20.04
loriejones7
hmm.
27:23.84
Liz Krupa
And I think my, my homicide trial may have scarred her a little bit.
27:28.57
loriejones7
You're like...
27:28.80
Liz Krupa
Um, you know, I said, I don't, I don't know that there, I don't know that there is a wrong choice, right? Like you could go to law school and still be a professor. You could become a professor and decide you want to continue your education and do law. There is no. infinite thing, right? And so like both of my parents, like I said, worked for the city for 30 some years, retired with great benefits at 55. Nobody does that anymore. And I just think it's crazy because I don't know that we always stay in the same job. I don't know that we stay in the same mental place for a job.
28:02.14
loriejones7
Okay.
28:02.24
Liz Krupa
um And I think people switch jobs more easily, even switch professions more easily or say, I don't, I don't like law. I don't, I don't like the pace. I don't like the work. I don't like being away from my family.
28:12.34
loriejones7
Oh.
28:13.60
Liz Krupa
If that's the case, I'm going to go. I mean, I have friends that went to law school with it quit to be ski instructors and they're happy. So, you know, I just try to tell them, I'm like, you you may think you know a path and it can change or or divert, um whether it's you get a divorce, you lose a family member, God forbid you lose a child, you know, life will throw things at you in different ways that you have to adjust. And the more flexible that you can be with those things, the better your personal self will get through it and help those around you.
28:49.08
Liz Krupa
So I think if anything, I would just have gone back and said, don't you know don't worry. When my husband passed, I had worked for the government my whole life, like my career. and After the state public defenders, it was the federal defenders. After the federal defenders, it was the SEC. After the SEC, it was the state Supreme Court Office of Attorney Regulation. And you know I had a salary. I had insurance. I had all these things as a now widowed single mom. And to start my own law firm was just frightening. I mean, apart from having kids, it was the most scary thing I'd ever done.
29:18.56
loriejones7
Mm hmm.
29:22.92
Liz Krupa
So I, you know, I think not to not be afraid, because I think that's just, that's silly. You're going to be afraid and it's okay to be afraid, but to try to be a little flexible with changes. um Embrace them even if you can, because I think that's a better way to help you through transitions.
29:42.41
loriejones7
So are there any tips that you would say that that kept you flexible through these changes or any ways that you could become more flexible?
29:52.02
Liz Krupa
Um, I think, yeah so this is gonna be interesting. My, um, my, I'm 55 and I say boyfriend, my boyfriend, um, meditates and, and I think he's done like Tony Robbins and some other kind of coaching things. And so one of the things that he loves to do is like these vision boards.
30:13.44
loriejones7
oh
30:13.49
Liz Krupa
Um, and you know, I used to journal all the time when I was younger, I kind of stopped after my husband passed, but like, you know, when, when he and I kind of sat down and said, okay, if we want to buy a house together, if we want to take a vacation, if we want to travel, like we want to travel, let's look at what that looks like and what we need and kind of a guide and you know, where we have some flexibility. And I i had never really done a lot of that. So that influence was great to be able to say, Oh, here's a good way to do this.
30:34.72
loriejones7
Mmhmm.
30:39.79
Liz Krupa
Um, and. if you can see it and and see kind of the different paths you can take and where you have a give and take, I think that's a good thing. And it it kind of reminds me like, you know, back in the days that I was boy crazy and it was like, well, let's make a list. What the perfect guy is, where you're willing to do whatever, you know? And and i I think that now too, when, you know, friends or mentees are like, you know, I don't know about this job. I don't know about this school. And I'm like, okay, let's make a list, pros and cons. Like, let's look at it. And I think some of those things are really helpful to be able to evaluate it so it's not kind of an emotional block, if that's the word.
31:09.51
loriejones7
Yeah.
31:16.13
loriejones7
I think sometimes too, as you, you're talking about vision boards, that's a great idea. That's a really good suggestion because it kind of gives you an idea of like, if I could have anything in the world, what, where would I go? And I think that changes, you know, depending on your season and time of life.
31:30.50
Liz Krupa
Mm hmm.
31:35.24
loriejones7
Um, but, but I do think that it's, it's good to kind of visualize. Because sometimes you can actually make that happen, you know, as you, as you realize that that's a goal that keeps coming up, or that's a vision that you see for your future that keeps coming back. You, you kind of work towards that.
31:53.72
Liz Krupa
Yeah. is um I think to it, depending on like, he, he keeps it on a whiteboard and it's like by his desk as kind of like a reminder. And so, you know, I think there's little things like that. Like I have a friend that, um, is kind of not I wouldn't say prone to depression but just has some moments from health issues and so you know I encourage her to like before you go to bed at night write down three great things that happened or in the morning you know three things that you want to get done or somebody you want to call or something like that and then when you do it you feel success you feel you know to really practice gratitude and and
32:17.19
loriejones7
Mm
32:37.42
Liz Krupa
not a list of 25 things so that you're overwhelmed. And when it doesn't happen, you're yeah beating yourself up about it.
32:42.59
loriejones7
hmm.
32:44.88
Liz Krupa
So one thing I think about having like, whether it's that vision board, or like I said, the three things of gratitude or the three things you're going to accomplish in a day, I think anything that helps you stay positive, stay focused, um kind of bolster you is is a great thing. and And I think what he does with that you know whiteboard is really accountability, like self accountability, which is hard for you to police yourself, for lack of a better word.
33:07.29
loriejones7
Oh Yeah, it's really easy on January 1st to sit down and write out your vision for a year, 10 years, 15 years, whatever you want. And then you put that in the drawer somewhere and you don't look at it again the rest of the year. And then January 1st, you're like, oh, I didn't even remember. That's what I said. So I think that idea of having it very present is great. I love the idea of a whiteboard. Maybe I'm looking around my office trying to figure out where I'm going to put mine.
33:39.02
Liz Krupa
Yeah. And it's, I mean, it's kind of funny because i I got like a little one for the bedside table, like just so I could, you know, but put a couple of things that were great that happened or, you know, like, I mean, I will wake up at night sometimes and go, Oh my gosh, I forgot to do this. And, you know, if I put it in my phone or I put it on that little whiteboard and like, you know, it just kind of helps you let go of it.
34:00.05
loriejones7
oh yeah
34:00.38
Liz Krupa
Um, kind of like you know i i I love doing yoga, but i I'm really bad at meditating.
34:01.61
loriejones7
yeah
34:06.43
Liz Krupa
I'm fine with quiet time, but when it's like guided and people are talking to you, I just get the giggles. I'm like a five-year-old boy. And you know there some friends of mine do meditation to sleep, and so you know I have a ski condo in the mountains, and we would go up there for girls' trips, and they would you know I could hear them with their sleep meditation. And it was, you know the deeper you go, the farther you feel, the farther you go.
34:26.12
loriejones7
Oh yeah.
34:28.12
Liz Krupa
the dode And I was like, I just busted out laughing.
34:28.92
loriejones7
Yeah.
34:31.99
Liz Krupa
So like you know there's times when you're you know in Shavasana at the end of yoga and they're guiding you and they're talking and you know I'm trying not to giggle or I'm hungry and trying to think of my next step. And I'm like, I'm not supposed to be thinking about food. I'm supposed to be clearing my mind. And one of the best yoga teachers I had said, what it's okay. Whatever thought comes in, just picture it. above an open fire and the piece of paper catches fire and it just turns to ash and blows away. And just picture that when you want to let something go. And I thought, that's great. So I try to do that now when I have something that I like fixate on.
35:08.29
loriejones7
Oh, that's a really good idea. i but you I'm laughing because I went to yoga one time, one time and they make you sit, they don't make you, they encourage you to sit still and like think at the end, they give you like two or three minutes. I have never been still for three minutes in my whole life. That gave me such anxiety. I can't even tell you. So I probably have to practice a lot more before I can meditate.
35:34.97
Liz Krupa
I just, I, you know, he does, he literally can meditate for an hour at a time. And I'm just like, I ah get up and start cleaning or make a grocery list. Like I just, it's so, and, and you know, maybe that's just because I'm so used to kind of going, um but I think those moments of stillness are important. I can definitely do it at a beach or at a pool.
35:54.22
loriejones7
Oh, oh yeah.
35:56.61
Liz Krupa
I don't want to get a sun tan. So I got to be able to figure out how to do that.
35:58.52
loriejones7
There we go.
36:00.33
Liz Krupa
You know, even if it's just a few hours a day, I think is important.
36:03.78
loriejones7
Yeah, I agree. And maybe I'll write it down on a goal and put it on a whiteboard where I can see it.
36:12.32
loriejones7
What about, um, you talked just a little bit about this, but what scared you the most? And I i say, when you started your career, but it sounds like that part wasn't scary. It was starting your own business that was more scary.
36:23.17
Liz Krupa
Yeah, starting my own business. and And I, you know, I mean, there's there's ah two things that I think have been the most humbling in my life. One is having children.
36:32.80
Liz Krupa
You know, I was 20, geez, four or five when I got married. And, you know, we, we were married for like five years without kids. And then one day it was just kind of like, Hey, you want to have kids? Okay. You know, I was never that woman that my whole life I wanted them.
36:45.43
loriejones7
Hello.
36:47.72
Liz Krupa
And my sister was, and I was like, God, is something wrong with me? Like, you know, what's going to happen? and Um, you know, being pregnant was great. I felt like a Wonder Woman. I felt like I am the giver of life and I was just amazing and what your body can do. And then, you know, when we brought him home, my first child home, we both cried. We were scared to death. I just thought, I'm going to break it. Like, what if I, you know, I'm inept. I can't do this. Um, and that was one of the scariest things.
37:15.17
loriejones7
And there's no instruction manual. They don't send you home with any instruction manuals.
37:18.54
Liz Krupa
No, no.
37:20.65
loriejones7
They just give you this living human being.
37:23.30
Liz Krupa
Right. And now I still crack up when, you know, my friends didn't have kids or about to, and they're like, oh, it's not going to change our lives. I'm like, good. I remember saying that too. I also remember, you know, hearing a kid having a tantrum in the store and saying, my kid will never do that. Uh-huh.
37:39.86
loriejones7
Oh, yeah.
37:41.10
Liz Krupa
They're just, you know, they don't know how to voice it. And there's some gentleman that works at like, um, I don't know if it's karate or some kind of like martial arts gym. And they're, they're boys ranging in age. um And he is just so good with them. Like, you know, they'll do like a little match and one of them will get really upset. And he's like, no, no, stop. And everybody has to stop. And he just kneels down next to him and he's like, what is happening? Where's this coming from? Is this anger? Is this hurt? Is this sadness? And he just really encourages these boys and young men to voice emotion.
38:17.85
Liz Krupa
and find a way to move through it that doesn't affect how they move through life. And I just think that's so powerful, right? Like we just, um now that we talk more about mental health than we ever have in the past, it's still hard to navigate emotion. Um, so, you know, I think part of it was just that, you know, having a child is such a huge responsibility and scary. Cause you realize like, it's you, you know, you did this, you brought it into this world.
38:47.90
Liz Krupa
You gotta, you gotta now take care of it and how much care, um, one of the most rewarding things though.
38:50.51
loriejones7
Right, yeah.
38:54.54
Liz Krupa
And then, you know, obviously starting my own law firm, I, I, you know, I had never run a business, um, I made a lot of choices when I first started my firm that, you know, a couple of years later, I was like, Oh my God. Um, and even now, like I, you know, I just, I did what most people did. I named it after me, the law offices of Elizabeth Esman as a croupa LLC. And now I kind of think about it and, and think, Oh, I should have just given it like a fun name. Like just, you know, um, I, ah in Colorado, there's these, I think it's Colorado department of transportation trucks.
39:28.79
Liz Krupa
you see them go by and it says incident command. So like anytime there's a big crash or you know whatever happens, they they help you with changing a tire, they help you with whatever, but they're also there in case there's a crash or a spill or whatever. And I just thought, oh man, that would have been a great name for a law firm as incident command.
39:45.84
loriejones7
Yeah, yeah. yeah
39:48.79
Liz Krupa
So yeah different things like that through life that you're like, It was super scary and now that I know how to do it, I try to talk to younger lawyers and like, you know, I really want to start a firm. I'm like, okay, but here's the do's and don'ts and where you can really get trouble.
40:01.40
loriejones7
Yeah, here's some things I learned. Yeah, yeah. I like that the um the the instructor sits down with the boys a lot of times the girls are allowed to have a name, emotions, and and stuff like that. But the boys, a lot of times, are taught to suck it up. And I like i like that he sits down and is like, what are you feeling right now?
40:23.01
Liz Krupa
Exactly.
40:28.39
Liz Krupa
and And he just like it's he he's just so intuitive to see it, right?
40:28.53
loriejones7
ah like
40:32.37
Liz Krupa
Like, I mean, you can tell when somebody's either frustrated or you know something like that, but he really like just gets down to it. And um in a really kind of encouraging way, not, not like super soft, like coddling or anything, he just very matter of fact, and they respond really well. it's ah it's a good lesson i think to why
40:51.68
loriejones7
Yeah.
40:55.19
loriejones7
I think and ah it probably works across multiple disciplines too. I can see that working really well in a team environment when you're doing coaching. um you know Some of those things maybe can be headed off if they're naming what they're feeling and trying to work through that emotion and not not letting it cloud what else is happening. So I like that. What about challenges uniquely because you were a woman.
41:18.72
Liz Krupa
It's a good lesson, I think, to watch.
41:20.08
loriejones7
Is there anything you've run into in your career that was something that was uniquely, was a challenge just because you were a woman?
41:32.14
Liz Krupa
I think probably a few, um, you know, if practicing law for sure. Um, I think that type of profession was the first time that I really felt it. And some of it was like, you know, when I was at the Colorado state public defender's office and even the federal defenders, there were so many women and women in leadership positions and female judges and. Um, it just, it didn't feel as isolating as when I went to the SEC and i I had worked in the federal government, but on the criminal side and you know, then I get into the securities and exchange commission.
42:10.90
Liz Krupa
And of the many, many years I worked there, I think there was only one time over eight or nine years, something like that, that there was a woman on the other side of the table for me. It was largely men, um, male judges.
42:24.12
loriejones7
Yeah.
42:26.64
Liz Krupa
And just you know kind of an it was the first time I really noticed that. um And the first time that I got some really bizarre experiences that only happened because I was a woman. I was litigating a big case in Texas. And I won't say who the opposing counsel was because it would identify him. But he um you know we were on a break of a multi-week trial. and he yeah We're walking out of the courtroom and he's like, you know, Elizabeth, why don't you just let my people go? And I'm like, well, you can't lie, cheat and steal on your periodic filings. Like, you know, you can't. That's why we're here. And he said, why don't you come back to my place instead of going to lunch? We'll have a little bubble bath, a little champagne. We could probably get the salt. And my co-counsel was a male and he just went ballistic.
43:16.78
Liz Krupa
He was furious. He said, you need to put this on the record. You need to discipline him. You need to blah, blah, blah, blah. And I said, why? All I did was turn around to the guy and say, is your mom still alive? And he said, no. And I said, I think she would turn over in her grave if she heard you speak to a married mother of two like that. And I just walked off. And I thought that was fine, right? And everybody was like, you should have done this. I'm like, no. If I would have gone back to the judge, he would have printed that transcript and hung it up in his office. If I would have tried to discipline him,
43:44.17
loriejones7
Mm hmm.
43:46.50
Liz Krupa
You know what? i i I have seen those cases where women have complained about men saying things like that to them. And it's just like, why are you so upset? like I don't understand. So i just it it wasn't for me a moment of, oh, whatever. like i I honestly felt like he was trying to knock me off my game. And he was trying to fluster me. And I just wasn't going to let it happen.
44:07.01
loriejones7
Yes.
44:07.77
Liz Krupa
And my assessment was how I felt. And it was to me. So I was like, nobody gets to do it for me either. This is my choice.
44:14.87
loriejones7
Yeah.
44:15.53
Liz Krupa
um
44:15.86
loriejones7
Well, I like that, that, that we get to choose how we respond to whatever, whatever the situation is. And we do, we all respond differently.
44:24.62
Liz Krupa
Exactly.
44:27.10
loriejones7
Each woman has a different way of, of coming at those kinds of, of things that we all feel in our career. And, and I think that it's very insightful to say that that's some women would want to have it up on record and they would want to, you know, push that. And some just say, your mother would be very disappointed in you.
44:50.91
Liz Krupa
Right. And I think part of that too is like I just learned like with my kids and their friends growing up, um even when I nannied, I nannied like through college that but it was boys specifically. If you say I'm disappointed or that's very disappointing, like to them that's way worse than any other punishment. and
45:09.01
loriejones7
the
45:09.82
Liz Krupa
I'm not sure that it's always a good thing because I don't know that I'm trying to scar them in some way. But I, you know, I just remember my, you know, when I was nannying one of the little boys that I was teaching, I was taken to like hockey practice at his country club or something. And he, he said a very disparate disparaging word. And I said, where is that coming from? Like, why does that word come to mind? And he's like, well, you know, that's what it means when, you know, two people of the same sex, duh, duh, duh. And I'm like, okay, you realize that's actually an insult.
45:42.12
Liz Krupa
Like it's a derogatory term that hurts people's feelings. That's not a nice word.
45:46.36
loriejones7
Mm hmm.
45:46.61
Liz Krupa
And he was like, well, my friend was trying to, you know, he just got too close. And I'm like, so then talk about a boundary of space instead of just something like that. Like there's there's a better way to do that. And he was like, why are you so upset? And I said, because it it hurts my feelings. It disappoints me.
46:02.90
loriejones7
Hmm.
46:04.98
Liz Krupa
And so the more that we kind of talk through those things, I think, and even now, like, I, you know, I had a board meeting a couple of weeks ago and, you know, trying to diversify a board and, you know, nominating names and people get upset because they feel like, you know, their, their person isn't getting in and. people get really emotional around things like that. And so to really try to keep it factual and recognize somebody's emotion and you know not call them out in a big board meeting to say, oh, a little bunny, you feel hurt. um But to just say, you know let's try to keep in mind that we're all fiduciaries.
46:41.67
Liz Krupa
And our job here is to make this the strongest board so that this organization thrives. And the mandate that I was given and this whole board did after this huge strategic planning was diversity and location, age, there were factors that were important. If your candidate doesn't fit that and you think it's important, then let's go back to the drawing board for next year and you can have that input.
47:05.81
loriejones7
Mm
47:05.90
Liz Krupa
but the direction we were given is this and factually that's why we're doing it. It's not because your person is bad or we don't like you or whatever. And I just, I was so, I was trying to keep it very, cause emotions were getting very high in the room and I was just trying to keep it calmer. And I think trying to understand when people speak typically um loud and over and over again, they don't feel heard.
47:29.63
loriejones7
hmm.
47:34.80
Liz Krupa
and to acknowledge not only what they're saying, how they're saying it, and where it's coming from, I think can sometimes diffuse that.
47:42.14
loriejones7
No, I like that. I like that tactic. That's something that but we use a lot and you know in financial planning and and where emotions and and things can get pretty high. So I like the like the reminder there. Liz, if you can look at your whole journey, what is the thing that you are the most proud of?
48:06.67
Liz Krupa
Oh, my children, 100%. They are amazing beings. I mean, they lost their father at a very young age. His mom, who was living with us and helping take care of them, um died of cancer like three months later. So they lost some really important people. and And I remember the child psychologists, again, were like, you know, they're gonna be huge empaths. These are the things that are, how they're going to be in life. And I, you know, tried to talk to him about, you know, I know this is horrific, but this isn't a license for the rest of your life to be mad or to feel robbed or that that's not a service to who he is and who he was.
48:46.93
loriejones7
Mm hmm.
48:47.22
Liz Krupa
Like you need to, to honor that. And and i just I'm so proud of who they are. I would love to take credit. um I think all I did was give them a safe place to be who they're going to be, but they're they're my greatest pride and joy for sure.
49:02.94
loriejones7
I love that. I love that sentiment and I agree with it that my kids are pretty important too. So I completely get that. And I think that we take those skills that we we learn with raising kids and and raising them to be, you know, good adults and being, and we we take those skills and put them back into the workplace too. So we're
49:24.86
Liz Krupa
Oh, definitely.
49:26.09
loriejones7
we're helping with teams, we're helping rope businesses, we're helping with boards and making sure that we have that inclusivity.
49:26.30
Liz Krupa
Definitely.
49:32.75
loriejones7
I i don't know about you, but sometimes navigating a three-year-old throwing a tantrum is a situation I've run into at work, just a little bit older sometimes.
49:43.59
Liz Krupa
Oh, yeah, I there was I think it was either a comedian or or somebody that said, you know, if you can negotiate with a three year old having a tantrum, you can negotiate with terrorists. Like it's it's similar philosophy, right?
49:53.21
loriejones7
Yeah, yeah.
49:55.31
Liz Krupa
And I don't know, i i I'm sure, like I said, I made plenty of mistakes parenting or whatnot, but even just like having to explain some crazy weird things that happened you know with the kids and their friends um have helped me in my professional life and personal life too, or seeing how they did something. so
50:18.71
loriejones7
They do teach us a lot too. I think that as we watch them navigate these situations, we're like, oh, I could use that in my life.
50:20.49
Liz Krupa
ah oh yeah
50:26.97
loriejones7
I could use just a little bit more of that. Makes you stop and think.
50:30.54
Liz Krupa
It does.
50:32.63
loriejones7
Any advice for a young lady who's just starting down this path? She's starting down the path that you're already so successful at. What would you tell her?
50:43.83
Liz Krupa
Have a good crew around you. I think it's really important I saw at the beginning of my career with some mentors, you know, different ages and different um backgrounds, um just having people that will always speak well of you in a room, especially when you're not there. And that hold you up, you know, when you're feeling down, celebrate you when you have a big win. I think that's terribly important to have a network that helps you with that.
51:24.13
loriejones7
I love that idea. And that's, I had one of my other women say, find your tribe. And I think that's, that kind of speaks to it, you know, you find the people that build you up, make you a better person, and support you and all the all of life's many things, because life isn't smooth a lot of times.
51:41.89
Liz Krupa
No, and it's you know it's interesting because I saw ah a group of women that I became a part of, but I saw like a few of them, they would always nominate each other for things in the community, different awards or or different things. and And I thought, well, that's that's actually really cool. That's a really cool idea. And then another group of women, um they there's I can't remember how many of them. I want to say there's 10, but maybe there's a few less. um Each of them by a table. for the group at whatever is their nonprofit.
52:13.50
Liz Krupa
And the other ones go and support that and you know try to help with the fundraising and do all things like that. And little things like that that I just think are really powerful and important to do for people.
52:27.25
loriejones7
Yeah, I agree.
52:27.68
Liz Krupa
Not just, you know let me help you at work. How was your day? But like, you know what are you passionate about? Let's figure out a way to support each other in those endeavors too.
52:37.58
loriejones7
I love that. Well, Liz, thank you so much for your time today and thank you for just sharing your experience and your insight. I really have gained a lot from this. Honestly, these are these podcast episodes are actually more for me than anyone else because I get so much out of them. But ah if I have a list three listener that wants to get in touch with you, ask more questions, just and reach out. How would they do that?
53:04.09
Liz Krupa
ah You can contact me on LinkedIn. You can message me. Most of my contact info is there, and I'm sure it's online.
53:12.58
loriejones7
Yeah, it's probably scary how much of our stuff is online. Well, thank you so much, Liz. I appreciate you doing this for us and um and thanks so much.
53:21.15
Liz Krupa
Of course, thank you.
53:24.22
loriejones7
Okay, I'm gonna find my mouse.