Host Lorie Jones is thrilled to introduce today’s power-packed episode with Elizabeth Bachman, CEO of Strategic Speaking for Results.
Elizabeth’s incredible journey from the opera stage to executive coaching is filled with hard-won lessons on resilience, mastering communication, and breaking through the glass ceiling. She’ll share how she turned career setbacks into stepping stones and why learning to ask for help can skyrocket your professional growth.
Whether you’re navigating the corporate world or leading a team, Elizabeth’s insights will inspire and equip you to make bold moves and claim your worth. Get ready for an episode brimming with actionable advice and real-world success stories.
Show Highlights:
- How Elizabeth Bachman faced opera’s gender bias. [00:05:35]
- Discover the true key to breaking the corporate glass ceiling. [00:07:47]
- How to effectively navigate a career pivot with resilience. [00:11:17]
- Foremother conditioning you must discard to assert your value. [00:15:55]
- Do women hesitate to ask for help and seek mentors? [00:19:07]
- Why taking the time to mourn ending dreams matters. [00:26:24]
- Tap into your biggest marketing tool hidden in your voice. [00:29:44]
- Find out how to seek Elizabeth Bachman’s mentorship. [00:35:05]
If you enjoyed this episode, please go to Apple Podcasts and leave a review!
For more information about Lorie Jones, go to http://fearless-females.com/.
00:01.94
loriejones7
Good morning. Well, thank you so much for joining us again on Fearless Females. We have Elizabeth Bachman here with us. She is the CEO of Strategic Speaking for Results. And I'm so excited because I really want to get to be a better um public speaker. And so kind of understanding how her journey went and what um how she came to be where she's at, I'm really excited to get to to learn about that. So thank you, Elizabeth, for joining us.
00:32.88
Elizabeth Bachman
Oh, it's my honor, Lori. Thank you.
00:36.00
loriejones7
So my very first question is always the same. I love reading. I just adore it. um What is your favorite book?
00:43.76
Elizabeth Bachman
Well, i am and I read novels. I read them very fast. I read them often. um And I'm often wearing science reading science fiction and fantasy with occasional forays into novels kind of mystery-ish.
00:55.31
loriejones7
it Okay.
01:00.83
Elizabeth Bachman
and lately I have been obsessed with the novels of Kate Quinn, the historical novels. And if she's she's written a series, she wrote a series set in Rome and um those were those were okay, not so great.
01:12.06
loriejones7
Mm hmm.
01:21.08
Elizabeth Bachman
But then she got into stories about World War II and the aftermath. And those are brilliant. Those just blow your mind. So um if anybody wants to start, the Alice Network is a great one to start with. And so I've been reading a lot of Kate Quinn.
01:40.34
loriejones7
That sounds so interesting. I hadn't even heard of her. So that sounds really interesting.
01:44.01
Elizabeth Bachman
Oh, you're in for a treat.
01:45.78
loriejones7
Yeah, I'll have to, I don't read science fiction, but the rest of my entire family does. So I'll have to pick your brain later about the science fiction recommendations.
01:53.58
Elizabeth Bachman
Mm hmm.
01:55.88
loriejones7
So, well, tell me a little bit about your journey. How did you get where you're at? Kind of what do you do? What brought you to to who you are now?
02:04.64
Elizabeth Bachman
So what I do now is work as a ah presentation skills trainer and executive coach for high level corporate women executives who are hitting a glass ceiling. And I help them shift the way they are perceived by shifting the way they communicate. And in fundamentally, it's like, how do you market yourself two to an audience? um And the audience might be internal or it might be external. Speaking in public is one of the best ways to become known and ah you know and show how smart you are. In the corporate world, people aren't really taught how to market themselves.
02:57.70
Elizabeth Bachman
so That's what I have come to after, I think this career number four, five, maybe, I don't know, I've pivoted a lot of times. But going back, I started as an actor when I was five.
03:08.48
loriejones7
Thank
03:14.45
Elizabeth Bachman
You know, I like to think, I think of it as being dedicated to the art of great communication.
03:14.65
loriejones7
you.
03:20.35
Elizabeth Bachman
um But basically, first time I ever walked on stage at the age of five, Afterwards, I heard my mom say that I was the best damn bunny rabbit ever to grace the stage of the hillside school. And I was hooked. It's like, oh, they like me. um I often think applause is the most the most addictive drug out there.
03:44.79
loriejones7
Thank you.
03:45.17
Elizabeth Bachman
And I worked my way out from acting to directing. I went to a small school, so I was the only one who'd had any training. And so I used to get every part I wanted. And then I went off to college on the East Coast um within calling distance of New York City. And there were all these kids who'd had Broadway actors running their high school theater. And a lot of them were way better than I was. But I was a good director. And I also had and a parallel interest in languages.
04:17.79
loriejones7
Okay.
04:17.97
Elizabeth Bachman
um Apparently, I told my family when I was 12 that I was going to be a citizen of the world.
04:22.63
loriejones7
Mm hmm.
04:24.41
Elizabeth Bachman
And ah they remember it. I don't remember saying that, but that's what's happened. and After college with a degree in French and a degree in directing, not really knowing what I was going to do to it, I moved to New York City to figure out what I was going to do and fell into opera. And that's where I stayed for 30 years. Working my way up from my first job was indeed driving the truck and sweeping the stage and being 50% of the staff for a small touring opera company up to directing at the Metropolitan Opera and internationally from there to running my own opera company in Austria.
05:05.12
loriejones7
Wow.
05:10.78
Elizabeth Bachman
So a bilingual opera company and
05:15.48
Elizabeth Bachman
And then after 30 years of it, um I burned out. I realized, especially that the opera company in Austria, we were in the state of Tyrol, where they, where they play Oopapa music and they weighed dirndls and later hosen and so forth. And, um and it was a great, It was an international exchange program disguised as an opera company, um mostly focused on helping young singers get experience.
05:47.74
Elizabeth Bachman
And when you're working with young artists, it's the same 20 arias over and over.
05:49.15
loriejones7
Mm
05:52.64
Elizabeth Bachman
And I thought, okay, it's now it's work.
05:52.95
loriejones7
hmm.
05:55.37
loriejones7
Mm
05:58.48
Elizabeth Bachman
If I don't stop now, I will lose the ability to be moved by the music.
05:58.79
loriejones7
hmm.
06:03.27
Elizabeth Bachman
And any, any job in the arts is hard enough.
06:05.25
loriejones7
Mm hmm.
06:06.99
Elizabeth Bachman
You've got to, um, if you don't love it anymore, it's time to stop.
06:12.42
loriejones7
Mm hmm.
06:12.82
Elizabeth Bachman
And by then I was already doing speaker training, which evolved from helping my friends, you know, and say, Oh, I'm giving a speech. Can you, can you check me out to becoming actually trained in it and working my way up through the ranks there. to combining all of that into into what I do now.
06:37.18
loriejones7
Mm hmm.
06:38.97
Elizabeth Bachman
The other piece of it is that part of being one of the early women, one of the early female stage directors in America, you know, I was still early on in my career, they would still do articles in the local paper, wherever I was, about what is it like as a woman to ah to direct Madama Butterfly? Do you have a different viewpoint of it as a woman? And I said, yeah, as a matter of fact, I do.
07:06.42
loriejones7
no
07:09.96
Elizabeth Bachman
And I wanted to run an opera company, knew I'd be good at it. And my colleagues all said, wow, yeah, you'd be great. Go ahead. Any opera company you run will be there, you bet. And so over the course of about three years, every time there was an opening, I would apply.
07:24.17
loriejones7
No. Hmm.
07:28.40
Elizabeth Bachman
I was always on the shortlist, number two, number three, and I always saw the job go to a man.
07:32.21
loriejones7
Hmm.
07:36.37
Elizabeth Bachman
And part of it I understood, I understood at the time that um this was in the late 90s, early 2000s,
07:46.77
loriejones7
Mm hmm.
07:50.70
Elizabeth Bachman
When you are worried about money, and if you're on the board of an opera company, you are always worried about money. yeah When you're worried about money, the inclination is to trust a man more than a woman. um What I didn't understand at the time was that I was marketing myself to the wrong people.
08:13.79
loriejones7
huh
08:15.08
Elizabeth Bachman
and being well known and appreciated by my colleagues wasn't good enough. I should have been marketing myself to the boards. And I didn't understand that at that time. And I didn't know that I should ask for help.
08:32.18
loriejones7
Uh-huh.
08:36.34
Elizabeth Bachman
That this was a whole, that being able to do the job,
08:37.84
loriejones7
Uh-huh.
08:40.82
Elizabeth Bachman
was great, but you know that old saying of what got you here won't get you there.
08:43.08
loriejones7
Uh-huh.
08:47.82
Elizabeth Bachman
Basically, I'd gotten as far as I could by being really good at what I did, but getting into, in corporate life would be called upper management, you know to be like vice president or C-level, was a whole different set of skills, and I didn't understand that.
09:09.65
loriejones7
huh
09:11.23
Elizabeth Bachman
So, I started my own opera company because nobody would hire me. i Nobody would give me an opera company to run, so I made one. But, you know, it was also, um it was also hard enough that um I now know that was, I was hitting a glass ceiling.
09:29.54
loriejones7
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
09:33.27
Elizabeth Bachman
I didn't know that at the time, and I didn't know how to ask for help and who to ask for help.
09:36.14
loriejones7
Mm hmm.
09:39.66
Elizabeth Bachman
And that's what motivates me now is I see women over and over, especially in the corporate realm, who get to a certain point, um shall we say, director, senior director. um I mean, every company is a little bit different, but roughly director or senior director.
09:57.39
loriejones7
Right.
09:59.40
Elizabeth Bachman
That's as far as you get through skill and ability.
10:01.84
loriejones7
Uh-huh.
10:05.16
Elizabeth Bachman
And to get from that to VP or C-level, you have to have a different mindset.
10:12.60
loriejones7
hu
10:14.22
Elizabeth Bachman
And I see many, many, many women fall into the same trap I did of thinking, if I just do a good job, if I just work a little bit harder, I will be rewarded for what I do. And then I would see the guys leapfrogging past me, and and twice it was someone I had trained, which
10:33.94
loriejones7
Oh, wow.
10:36.87
Elizabeth Bachman
frankly pissed me off. and so So now what I work with, often with women who are in their late forties, fifties or sixties, because up until then, if you work harder, you probably will be rewarded.
10:39.90
loriejones7
like here
10:46.50
loriejones7
Uh-huh.
10:55.76
Elizabeth Bachman
But ageism comes into play and you aren't the, you aren't the wunderkind anymore. You aren't the,
11:03.75
loriejones7
Mm hmm.
11:05.37
Elizabeth Bachman
You aren't the exciting new thing.
11:09.69
Elizabeth Bachman
And you have to change, you're still but you're still considered a worker bee. Someone who just does a good, solid job.
11:16.44
loriejones7
Yeah.
11:18.81
loriejones7
Uh huh.
11:18.93
Elizabeth Bachman
And that doesn't get you that promotion. So that's That's the problem I solve, is getting past that glass ceiling through presentation skills, through speaking.
11:29.80
loriejones7
Oh.
11:31.64
Elizabeth Bachman
Public speaking is one is the best way to do it. Learning how to speak. Sometimes it's just giving a presentation in your to your team. or you know within the company at a certain point you have to start speaking outside the company to get that visibility otherwise you're just you're just invisible ah older women are invisible anyway and then also at a certain point you have ideas about much you know what we should do about things in the world and if you want to get your thought leadership out there you've got to speak so it's
11:41.97
loriejones7
Mm-hmm. Right.
12:01.69
loriejones7
Hmm.
12:09.65
Elizabeth Bachman
I think what is executive coaching through the lens of presentation skills. How do you show up?
12:15.68
loriejones7
I love that. So ah you said two words that usually strike terror into most people and that is public speaking. Have you found that is a, is that a lot of people will come to you just terrified of even the thought of giving it, getting up in front of a large group.
12:33.66
Elizabeth Bachman
Most of the time, if they are at the director or senior director level, they have done some speaking.
12:41.04
loriejones7
So they're fine.
12:41.25
Elizabeth Bachman
you you You pretty much have to.
12:43.04
loriejones7
Mm-hmm.
12:45.05
Elizabeth Bachman
Whether you're doing it well, that's the problem. I mean, we've all sat through those ah we've all sat through those presentations where somebody talks like this and they read, they they put up the slides and then they just read the slides and it's boring, boring, boring, boring.
13:06.17
loriejones7
falls asleep.
13:08.45
Elizabeth Bachman
We've all been through those.
13:10.10
loriejones7
Yeah.
13:11.93
Elizabeth Bachman
Learning how to do it well is what puts you on the map and what makes people notice it.
13:16.98
loriejones7
Yeah.
13:19.78
Elizabeth Bachman
And to a certain extent, if you're inside an organization or in an industry where everybody knows you,
13:27.21
loriejones7
Hmm.
13:27.63
Elizabeth Bachman
You've got to speak outside that industry and then have people, you know, ask people to tell, you have to get the testimonials, get the recordings, have people comment because that gives you um in the business, we call it third party validation.
13:47.16
loriejones7
Mmhmm.
13:47.73
Elizabeth Bachman
When somebody else tells the CEO, wow, Lori gave the most amazing speech, I've never thought of it that way. She just blew my mind. The CEO is going to go, oh, Lori, I didn't know you knew all that. um I can't tell you how many times I've had a client call me up and they said, so I did the speech and I got back to the office and my colleagues, I said, I didn't know you knew all that. So it's positioning yourself the right way.
14:26.36
Elizabeth Bachman
Owning your brilliance, figuring out what makes you different. you know what What's your slant on the problem?
14:31.18
loriejones7
Yeah.
14:36.08
Elizabeth Bachman
What problem do you solve? All of that. And I just love getting into that. that's yeah i am a I am a word geek.
14:42.77
loriejones7
Yeah. i eat Yeah.
14:44.61
Elizabeth Bachman
I'm a language person. so it
14:47.22
loriejones7
You can hear it. You can hear it in your voice. You can hear that you love it. And and we have a ah similar um mindset in that like encouraging women to grow and do better and empower them, giving them the tools they need to to succeed in this world is ah is a strong passion of mine as well. but Well, tell me, Elizabeth, what is the best investment you've made in yourself? If you could look back and think through that journey, and there was a lot of pivots, you're right. So fascinating. I think we could spend a whole hour just talking about all the different places you you went through to get where you're at. But can you think of one thing that you were like, oh my goodness, I'm so glad I did that. If I didn't, my my whole life would have turned out differently.
15:33.03
Elizabeth Bachman
I think the biggest pivot was um when I realized that I was no longer fashionable as a director, um basically
15:44.70
loriejones7
Mm
15:46.43
Elizabeth Bachman
ah My career ended but before I was ready and I just, I wasn't the hot young thing anymore. I was a known quantity and not as exciting. I needed to shift the way I was perceived. I didn't have that language then.
16:04.01
Elizabeth Bachman
And so I started the opera company and, but it's a nonprofit. And when I,
16:09.42
loriejones7
hmm.
16:11.51
Elizabeth Bachman
What I didn't realize was I did have people ah to ask and people to help me. So how do you put this together? I knew how to run the production part of the company because that's what I've been doing for 30 years. You know, I knew what it costs to rent five pianos, for instance.
16:27.40
loriejones7
man
16:29.58
Elizabeth Bachman
But in order to do it, I had to form a nonprofit and I had to raise $100,000 to start, which sure as heck wasn't in my bank account.
16:33.42
loriejones7
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
16:42.39
Elizabeth Bachman
So I had to speak. I had to speak to raise money. And that's where I learned the art of speaking to raise money. So the biggest The biggest investment, the biggest risk was saying I was going to do the opera, yeah I was going to create this opera company.
17:01.77
loriejones7
Aha.
17:01.98
Elizabeth Bachman
And then um then the biggest investment was, frankly, when I started doing these fundraisers, I was terrible. I was terrified and terrible. And a um a woman who was a speaker trainer, but who liked music, came to one of my house parties. And she called me up the next day and she said, you know, there are some things you could do that would get you better results.
17:32.96
Elizabeth Bachman
ah Do you want to hear about them? And and it was it just blew my mind. I had no idea that public speaking was a thing.
17:40.62
loriejones7
Mm-hmm. Good.
17:44.08
Elizabeth Bachman
I you know i had never run across that. i'd ah I'd been on stage since I was five. So I could get out there and talk.
17:50.57
loriejones7
and
17:53.58
Elizabeth Bachman
learning how to speak to get people to open their wallets was a whole different thing. And I thought, I really thought about it.
18:02.12
loriejones7
Mm-hmm.
18:05.90
Elizabeth Bachman
And um she was expensive, you know, and I thought my, my dedication to the people who need what I can teach them has to be greater than my fear.
18:18.64
loriejones7
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
18:22.23
Elizabeth Bachman
And so I scrounged around and borrowed and scrambled and came up with the money and hired her. And that was the first of many, many, many, many, many coaches that I've had. And then I have continued. Once you've hired your first coach, then you understand how how useful it is.
18:39.64
loriejones7
The difference.
18:45.66
Elizabeth Bachman
and um And then it paid off the first time I went to somebody, ah you know, went to someone in her living room and told her what I was going to try to build. And, and you know, would she please, you know, give me a donation, maybe 100 bucks, 500 bucks. And she wrote a check for three thousand.
19:06.73
loriejones7
Oh, wow.
19:07.33
Elizabeth Bachman
And it said, I believe in what you're trying to do.
19:10.76
loriejones7
you
19:11.46
Elizabeth Bachman
Here's a full scholarship. Use this money to sponsor somebody.
19:15.61
loriejones7
Wow.
19:16.86
Elizabeth Bachman
And I thought, ah, this is what it's about.
19:20.18
loriejones7
Yeah, that's amazing. That's really cool. And I do think that I God bless those people that are like, she wasn't like, Oh, you're terrible.
19:29.52
Elizabeth Bachman
Yeah. Well, that was after I'd had some training.
19:30.79
loriejones7
Hey, I
19:32.72
Elizabeth Bachman
So that was the first time I went to somebody expecting a hundred and got 3000.
19:33.67
loriejones7
ah
19:38.41
loriejones7
um
19:38.65
Elizabeth Bachman
And the other thing is raising $100,000, mostly in hundred dollar increments ah was, ah yeah, it took me twice as long as I thought it would, but we did it.
19:44.20
loriejones7
Wow, that's a lot of work.
19:49.82
loriejones7
Yeah.
19:51.58
Elizabeth Bachman
And then we ran for 11 years. And I learned a whole lot along the way, made a lot of mistakes, learned a whole lot, and um ultimately the market changed. So we um we closed honorably um for assorted reasons, chiefly among them because it was getting to be and it was just getting to be rote for me.
20:08.97
loriejones7
Mm-hmm.
20:19.13
loriejones7
Yeah.
20:20.71
Elizabeth Bachman
And I thought, ah okay, it's time, time to do something else.
20:20.71
loriejones7
Mm-hmm.
20:25.11
Elizabeth Bachman
And I'll tell you, 10 years earlier, I would have never thought I would do something else.
20:25.37
loriejones7
That's part of the passion.
20:30.87
Elizabeth Bachman
And maybe that comes with maturity.
20:32.33
loriejones7
Mm-hmm.
20:33.46
Elizabeth Bachman
um You know, i I thought I would have kept on directing operas for as long, you know, forever and never, ah you know, I have friends that, that sat next to me when we were lowly assistants in the assistant stage manager office who are still out there directing. And good for them. It's very few.
20:59.76
loriejones7
Yeah.
21:01.12
Elizabeth Bachman
Yeah.
21:02.53
loriejones7
Can you think of some really bad advice that you got through your journey where you're at today? And did you take the advice? Did you not take the advice? Tell me about that.
21:14.64
Elizabeth Bachman
Well, I think I said I made a lot of mistakes.
21:19.11
loriejones7
Learning experience, as we call them.
21:21.22
Elizabeth Bachman
Learning experiences. Yes, lots of learning experiences. And you know if anybody's listening was working for me in the early days, I apologize. I was like, OK, I got better. I got better. Sorry. um Well, I think you have to screw up. in order to learn and hopefully you don't leave too many too much damage around you. You sent me this question and I thought about it and I thought the advice I got was not one piece of advice.
22:00.39
loriejones7
Mm hmm.
22:01.21
Elizabeth Bachman
um And this motivates what I fight about now. I fight for gender equity and equal inclusion, equal pay for everybody, equal pay for the same job. And because the advice I got was being socialized to be a good girl and don't ask for money because, you you know, what The bad advice were all those voices, all those foremothers in my head who kept me small and I listened and I did it.
22:36.77
loriejones7
Mm-hmm.
22:41.37
Elizabeth Bachman
And so the thing that I really regret is all the years that I sold myself for cheap.
22:49.41
loriejones7
Mm
22:52.49
Elizabeth Bachman
I sold myself for much less than I was worth because I was too scared to ask for more.
22:52.49
loriejones7
-hmm.
22:56.59
loriejones7
Mm-hmm.
23:02.83
Elizabeth Bachman
I was too scared to actually ask for money. I would wait until somebody told me what was in the budget and I say, sure, that's fine because I was so happy that they would take me at all because inside there was the the voice saying, who are you?
23:05.69
loriejones7
ha
23:12.72
loriejones7
Mm hmm.
23:19.39
Elizabeth Bachman
They're never going to listen to you. you know Don't offend anybody by asking for too much.
23:25.13
loriejones7
Yeah.
23:26.64
Elizabeth Bachman
And that's, I don't think anybody ever said that directly.
23:29.62
loriejones7
Mm
23:30.70
Elizabeth Bachman
I think that comes from socialization, the way girls are socialized, maybe not so much now, but in my day.
23:33.74
loriejones7
hmm.
23:39.83
Elizabeth Bachman
um And so a huge part of the work I do now is helping women fight against that that conditioning.
23:53.32
loriejones7
Mm hmm.
23:53.85
Elizabeth Bachman
And so if you might, a little, um I'm kind of a history nut in terms of, this so I think of it as it's not like anybody did it to us. It's not as if we did it to ourselves for centuries. It was important for women to be agreeable and nice and not make waves because women had no power of money.
24:25.08
Elizabeth Bachman
They had no power of money.
24:25.15
loriejones7
Mm hmm.
24:26.82
Elizabeth Bachman
They had no political power. They had no business power. The only power came from being attached to a man.
24:35.31
loriejones7
Mm
24:37.69
Elizabeth Bachman
And it's really since the the birth control pill came along,
24:43.19
loriejones7
hmm.
24:44.39
Elizabeth Bachman
that women were able to control whether or not they had babies. you know Having babies became a choice instead of the thing that put you in like the housewife box.
24:59.52
loriejones7
Mm hmm.
25:01.13
Elizabeth Bachman
And wonderful being a wife, wonderful being a parent, you know it's a great thing. But it does also hard to then be a um to have a career if you want it. So what I fight against is this centuries of tradition, and it's breaking down little by little, but it's really been since the birth control pill, which is why, ah you know, so, and why it's so many societies when ah dictators come in, they they stop the women from talking,
25:21.84
loriejones7
Mm hmm.
25:42.50
Elizabeth Bachman
They stop the women from making choices, and they stop ah they stop the women from ah from controlling their own bodies because that was the model for centuries.
25:53.44
loriejones7
Hmm.
25:59.84
Elizabeth Bachman
and it's an an End of my political statement, but but this is what I fight about.
26:00.53
loriejones7
Historically.
26:03.12
loriejones7
yeah
26:04.82
Elizabeth Bachman
This is what passion what motivates me.
26:07.26
loriejones7
Yeah. So I can see that, that listening to that, that kind of, you know, it, it isn't only, I found, you're right. I have to tell my young women in my office, I'm like, go figure out what you're worth and don't accept less than that. And they're like, well, where do I find that? And I explained it exactly how to get, you know, a raise. And, and that was because I had a great mentor that taught me not to take less than what I was worth. But I find that that that's that's across the board, too.
26:39.80
loriejones7
I'll find my sense going, how do I?
26:40.60
Elizabeth Bachman
yeah
26:43.14
loriejones7
It just it feels like men most of the time are more willing to ask for what they want. And if they ask, a lot of times their supervisors find a way to give it to them because they know they they've asked for it.
26:48.61
Elizabeth Bachman
Mm hmm.
26:53.57
Elizabeth Bachman
Yeah.
26:55.79
loriejones7
They know what they want. And so and man or woman, you know, boy or girl, whatever, whoever I'm teaching, I do always say, ask, figure out what it is you're worth.
26:57.63
Elizabeth Bachman
Mm hmm.
27:07.57
loriejones7
Ask for it.
27:09.53
Elizabeth Bachman
I wish I had known you in my 20s. because it took me an embarrassingly long time. um And I'm not the only one, I know, but it took a long time to learn how to ask for what I was worth.
27:23.11
loriejones7
Yeah.
27:23.51
Elizabeth Bachman
but um And you know I remember right out of college, a group of us moved to New York City together after after college, and one of my best friends was a writer. And he got he went to apply for a job to write a story for somebody. And he asked for twice as much as he thought they would pay him. And they said yes. And he came back and he said, they can't be twice as much. I'm going to buy myself an IBM Selectric.
27:55.76
Elizabeth Bachman
That was the thing.
27:55.99
loriejones7
yeah
27:56.32
Elizabeth Bachman
you know I'm going to buy myself a new typewriter. And I thought, how? How did he do that?
28:04.50
loriejones7
Yeah.
28:05.76
Elizabeth Bachman
at And I wish I had known you then because it just took me a long time to learn how to do that. And, you know, to play it, all the messages were play it safe, stay small, don't don't dare, don't take the leap. And um so now, you know, as ah as an older person who suffered through that, now I help other people say, okay, yes, you can do it.
28:36.20
loriejones7
Yeah, find a voice. Be fearless. Try it.
28:38.80
Elizabeth Bachman
Mm-hmm.
28:39.70
loriejones7
What's the worst that can happen?
28:40.01
Elizabeth Bachman
Yeah.
28:40.79
loriejones7
I always tell them, I can't take away your birthday, right?
28:44.65
Elizabeth Bachman
That's a good phrase. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it is. Well, you know, that socialization is still there.
28:50.02
loriejones7
Mm-hmm.
28:50.95
Elizabeth Bachman
Yeah.
28:51.76
loriejones7
Yeah, it is.
28:52.46
Elizabeth Bachman
yeah
28:53.06
loriejones7
Is there a situation through your journey, Elizabeth, that you can look back on? And I'm not going to say regret exactly, but because there's something that you're like, ooh, if I know now what I knew then, I would totally do that differently.
29:07.50
Elizabeth Bachman
Well, again, I think I've been talking about regrets the whole time.
29:12.25
loriejones7
yeah
29:12.44
Elizabeth Bachman
I should talk about some successes. The situations, lots of little regrets taking the safe choice. um And the big regret, I think, is not realizing that I could get help in applying to run an opera company.
29:38.11
loriejones7
Yeah. Mm hmm.
29:43.56
Elizabeth Bachman
It didn't occur to me to ask one of my mentors. I had mentors.
29:51.28
Elizabeth Bachman
It didn't occur to me that taking that big step required different skills.
29:55.40
loriejones7
Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
30:02.53
Elizabeth Bachman
And um
30:05.90
Elizabeth Bachman
Another, so here's another thing that, that sort of of a lot of the things that I talk about, um I'm a linguist. I'm used to working in multiple languages. I've been living and working internationally since I was 17. And, you know, in opera, you're working in multiple languages. I think that men and women historically and traditionally have two different ways of thinking.
30:24.09
loriejones7
Mmhmm.
30:34.76
Elizabeth Bachman
You've got the, and in, you know, it's traditionally men, the single focus thinking that says it's about me and I could do one thing at a time. And that helps them go out and ask. Cause it doesn't occur to them that there's a risk. It doesn't occur to them that they might fail if if those are young.
30:54.36
loriejones7
Right.
30:56.18
Elizabeth Bachman
Women are relational thinkers. um and you know and And it's not nearly that binary, it does a whole spectrum. But historically, traditionally, women are multi-focused relational thinkers, which is which allows you to have allows you to see all the side issues that the single-focused thinkers might miss. So that's important. The disadvantage is that if you see the world in a web of relationships,
31:30.52
Elizabeth Bachman
Everything's about you and if someone says no, they're rejecting you not your idea and it it all becomes personal and That's another thing I didn't figure I didn't learn until years later That um I thought just being me
31:39.02
loriejones7
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
31:55.66
Elizabeth Bachman
with all the things that I knew I knew how to do, would qualify me for that big promotion to running an opera company.
31:58.41
loriejones7
here
32:04.63
Elizabeth Bachman
And I didn't understand at the time that I had to position myself differently. And I actually, no one was gonna take it for granted about what I knew. I had to learn how to tell them.
32:22.60
loriejones7
Uh huh.
32:23.50
Elizabeth Bachman
And so learning how to talk about what I was good at and learning how to speak a language that would get them excited was what would make the sale. So there's the other thing. I was promoting myself, um you would say, selling yourself. it It was a sales and marketing technique, which I didn't understand.
32:45.41
loriejones7
Yeah.
32:47.00
Elizabeth Bachman
And that was a place where I could have, should have gotten help.
32:52.36
loriejones7
Yeah, that's so interesting. Did you um did you get better at it? Like, you know, this is like, go back and do it differently. Did you get better at at learning how to ask for help? And how did you get better at learning how to ask for help? I'm assuming you did.
33:06.75
Elizabeth Bachman
I learned how to ask for help when I started the opera company and then I couldn't do it all myself and I had to ask I Had to ask people to pay me money like the big scary money conversation I had to ask people to give me money and since it was my company It was giving money to me which meant I and
33:07.70
loriejones7
met someone
33:11.59
loriejones7
ah
33:14.75
loriejones7
and
33:26.15
loriejones7
Mm hmm.
33:30.09
loriejones7
Mm hmm.
33:36.09
Elizabeth Bachman
when i had What I learned, thanks thanks to this first trainer, God bless her, was that I could have them give money to the cause of creating this opera company, of helping these young singers. I was just the medium through who through whom this result would be achieved.
34:00.06
loriejones7
Uh huh. Uh huh.
34:06.57
Elizabeth Bachman
I knew I could change people's lives if I could just get them to come to Austria for that's those three weeks in the summer, for that summer festival.
34:15.22
loriejones7
Uh
34:17.79
Elizabeth Bachman
I could change people's lives.
34:18.38
loriejones7
huh.
34:19.96
Elizabeth Bachman
I had to learn how to tell people that their $100 or $500 or $3,000 would make it possible.
34:29.99
loriejones7
Mm hmm.
34:30.97
Elizabeth Bachman
And that was learning what motivated the donors.
34:37.95
loriejones7
Mm hmm.
34:38.57
Elizabeth Bachman
What motivated the donors was what the singers did. Nobody wants to donate to paper payfor plate paper clips, you know.
34:45.65
loriejones7
Yeah, yeah.
34:46.46
Elizabeth Bachman
no one's No one's going to give you a grant for paper clips and all the other things.
34:46.80
loriejones7
That that makes sense.
34:49.94
Elizabeth Bachman
You have to fold it all in under sponsoring the singers because sponsoring the singers is what they care about.
34:59.00
loriejones7
What about if you could go back and talk to yourself at the beginning of your journey, talk to your 20, 21 year old, 22 year old, talk to you when you were young, just on the start of this exciting new new place you were headed. What would you tell her?
35:17.04
Elizabeth Bachman
I would tell her you can do this. I would tell her to ask for help. Find the mentors, and we've been talking about this the whole way through, you know, find the mentors, find the Laurie Jones who will tell you to go for it. and And also, you know, look outside the family because it's too easy. Your family says, yes, you're great. We love you no matter what. Then you say, yeah, yeah, yeah, but the voices in my head are louder than that.
35:49.60
loriejones7
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
35:51.92
Elizabeth Bachman
So I would say, find the mentors. One thing particularly for relational thinkers, and most women are relational thinkers, is you need the cohort. You need the group of peers, people who are at the same stage as you are, who will say, great, go for it.
36:08.06
loriejones7
Mm hmm.
36:16.42
Elizabeth Bachman
We believe in you, we know you can do this. And there's this whole myth, um both men and women have this whole myth of I ought to be able to do it myself.
36:29.29
loriejones7
yeah
36:31.87
Elizabeth Bachman
One of, and I had to, um you know, I had to crash and burn a couple of times before I figured out where to go for help and how to find the help. and how And the other thing is that different people are the right mentor for you at different stages in your life.
36:49.00
loriejones7
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
36:55.07
Elizabeth Bachman
So it's okay to move on. But be looking for the people who believe in you and will sponsor you, will mentor you. ah Yeah.
37:09.23
loriejones7
I love that i I had someone say, find your tribe. She's like, she's like find your tribe.
37:12.80
Elizabeth Bachman
Yeah.
37:14.78
loriejones7
and And that's always kind of stuck with me.
37:14.97
Elizabeth Bachman
Yeah.
37:16.90
loriejones7
And and and you find people that are are good, supportive, but also that are not afraid to say, hey, do you want some help with that in the nicest way possible?
37:27.23
Elizabeth Bachman
Yeah.
37:28.95
loriejones7
but
37:29.87
Elizabeth Bachman
Well, and I had a tribe, but it was a tribe of peers. i There's this thing that girls are taught. that um don't ask for what you need because you're imposing. You're bothering people.
37:50.76
loriejones7
Mm hmm.
37:51.42
Elizabeth Bachman
Don't impose. And that one took me a long time. Actually, it was becoming a boss and running a company that made me realize, oh, I have to give clear instructions and actually ask for something. Another thing women do often is hint. because there's this underlying thank you grandma and great grandma and all the ancestors who say, you know, don't be a bother.
38:16.82
loriejones7
Hmm.
38:18.42
Elizabeth Bachman
um
38:21.05
Elizabeth Bachman
Don't ask for what you need. And so um finding mentors who are who are ahead of you on the path.
38:36.34
loriejones7
Hmm.
38:37.92
Elizabeth Bachman
who know the business and are willing to help a young person, and then be smart about how you ask. But ask.
38:44.20
loriejones7
Yeah.
38:46.34
Elizabeth Bachman
um That's something that I didn't learn until later, and I wish I'd known that in my 20s. I actually had some mentors who helped me, and I did take their advice, um like the one who said, you're never gonna be a famous actress.
38:52.79
loriejones7
Yeah.
39:02.24
Elizabeth Bachman
but you could be a famous director. ah You know, giving up on that dream um was, you know, that I had a mentor who said, if you don't have to act, if it's not the most important important thing in your life, do something else.
39:21.90
loriejones7
Mm hmm.
39:22.63
Elizabeth Bachman
Figure out what you really want to get out of the experience of being in the theater, which for me was having that community.
39:30.36
loriejones7
Mm hmm.
39:30.96
Elizabeth Bachman
and then see what else you can do.
39:32.92
loriejones7
Mm hmm.
39:34.52
Elizabeth Bachman
And she said, this the advantage of this is you have choices. The ones who really must act, that's the only thing that matters, they're trapped, because that's all they can do. And and she the way she phrased it made me say, oh, I have choices. OK, I don't have to be an actor. I can spare myself that heartache. and because because it would have been hard, you know, I wouldn't have done very well ah to say, but I could be a really good director.
40:10.61
loriejones7
hu but That's interesting. They expanded your mind and kind of helped you think outside the box. A lot of times we get stuck inside our own thinking, inside our own brain, and we can only see one way forward. And I do like the idea that you know, these mentors, these these people that we surround ourselves with, they have a bigger view. They they can see maybe more possibilities than we can.
40:33.66
Elizabeth Bachman
Yeah.
40:37.91
Elizabeth Bachman
Yeah. And so then be willing to listen and be willing to think about it. And some of it's also just growing up, you know the experience of going to college. And you might have been top dog in your high school, but so was everybody else at college. And yeah and some of them were much topper dogs than you were.
40:55.19
loriejones7
Yeah.
40:59.69
Elizabeth Bachman
um Almost every freshman runs into that and he goes, o okay, I'm playing in a bigger game now. How do I, okay, what do I do? So that was part of what happened to me. And then leaving college and going to work. I will say that I'm, I'm proud having been in the opera business for 30 years professionally. Um, you know, fewer than 5% of the people who want to be opera singers, actually any art, fewer than 5% of people who want, who like have gotten a master's degree in, you know, basket weaving or painting or flute or dance or anything, fewer than 5% of them wind up making a living with their art.
41:37.30
loriejones7
Mm hmm.
41:50.40
Elizabeth Bachman
And I did, I did make a living with my art. Of that 5%, fewer than 5% make it past 10 years. you know It's like sports.
42:03.74
loriejones7
Yeah.
42:04.10
Elizabeth Bachman
Fewer than 5% of the high schools high school stars make it into the major leagues or the professional sports.
42:13.42
loriejones7
Mm hmm.
42:13.82
Elizabeth Bachman
And then maybe you get 10 years before you're sidelined by injury or you know, there's just a hot young, there's a hot young pitcher who comes in or, you know, a hot young goalie who comes in and you're not as interesting anymore, they know you. It's that the the statistics are the same for the arts and for sports.
42:35.22
loriejones7
Uh huh.
42:35.97
Elizabeth Bachman
ah So I'm very proud that I made it into that first 5%. Not making it into the second 5% was hard, was really hard.
42:45.64
loriejones7
Mm-hmm.
42:47.09
Elizabeth Bachman
And ah it took me a while to to come to terms with that dream ended, and it wasn't my choice.
42:59.52
loriejones7
Yeah. Yeah.
43:01.66
Elizabeth Bachman
um But my life is so much richer now. And people said, people said your life is going to be so much richer. And I didn't believe them. And so that's also you know the the period of mourning the loss of the thing you loved and then finding something else.
43:17.35
loriejones7
Mm
43:22.21
Elizabeth Bachman
It just takes the time it takes.
43:24.63
loriejones7
Yeah, that's so interesting.
43:25.29
Elizabeth Bachman
and
43:26.55
loriejones7
that That's true. you And it's true for just about everything. You have a period of mourning, and if you try and rush it or get past it or not do it, it it doesn't work. you have to You have to kind of go through the process, the learning process, mourning for what you did, what you messed up or what you did wrong or how you didn't do or what you weren't able to accomplish before you can move on. And and it usually does end up being better in the end. You can't skip that phase, right?
43:55.76
Elizabeth Bachman
Yeah, damn it. I know. I know. I wish. um you know it just it's yeah The only way out is through. And um and in when you're in the middle of it, it's really hard.
44:06.43
loriejones7
Yeah.
44:12.29
Elizabeth Bachman
so yeah um And that's part of life.
44:18.63
loriejones7
Yeah.
44:19.35
Elizabeth Bachman
it's part of growing up and and in life and Surviving I guess you know it starts when you your first high school your first high school crush you know a girlfriend or boyfriend dumps you and you think you're never gonna get get better and then oh okay, then you can you if you survive that one you can survive the next one in the next one it just You know, it's part of of the the roller coaster of life
44:43.39
loriejones7
Yeah.
44:49.54
Elizabeth Bachman
But um I wouldn't trade it. There are some things I wish I could have. There are plenty of things I wish I could have done better than smarter about it. um
45:02.04
Elizabeth Bachman
Mostly, it was just learning to ask for help. I wish I'd learned for help asked for help earlier. I would have still have screwed up. But maybe I would have screwed up.
45:08.99
loriejones7
what
45:09.66
Elizabeth Bachman
in like maybe Maybe some of it wouldn't have been quite so painful. I don't know.
45:14.23
loriejones7
yeah
45:15.28
Elizabeth Bachman
I can't change it. It is what it is. and
45:17.37
loriejones7
Right, right.
45:19.16
Elizabeth Bachman
that also that pain helps me now help the others when um when they're going through it.
45:34.84
loriejones7
Yeah, helps, helps ah add your experience and that ah sense of empathy.
45:37.09
Elizabeth Bachman
yeah
45:43.15
loriejones7
i I've been there where you're at. I feel what you're feeling. You're going to make it. And probably a good cheerleader for for coming out on the other side.
45:48.23
Elizabeth Bachman
Yeah.
45:52.96
Elizabeth Bachman
Yeah, I mean, something I often say is, look, um I know you don't feel it now. I'm gonna believe in you until you're ready to believe in yourself. I'm gonna do everything I can, but I'm here to help you. And that I think is what um what you're supposed to, how you're supposed to pass it on. People helped me. And I will tell you that, The best part of what I do is when I've been working with somebody to put together her speech, for instance, and ah and and then she goes out and she does it.
46:25.97
loriejones7
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
46:33.89
Elizabeth Bachman
And she's not thinking about what she's going to do with her hands if it's live, or she's not thinking about what comes next or how she's going to do it because we've done all that.
46:41.33
loriejones7
Mm hmm.
46:43.96
Elizabeth Bachman
That's the craft that I teach. so that she's open to being a channel for the art of her ideas.
46:54.97
loriejones7
Yeah.
46:55.20
Elizabeth Bachman
I teach the craft so that you can be a channel for art, because I do think that the great ideas come from some place, some place above us, some sort of inspiration.
47:07.02
loriejones7
yeah
47:07.59
Elizabeth Bachman
And our job as presenters, as speakers, is to channel that.
47:11.30
loriejones7
Mm hmm.
47:15.93
Elizabeth Bachman
Let's say it's divine inspiration. ah you know If you're a singer, it's like be a channel for Mozart. If you're a speaker, it's be a channel for an idea.
47:22.04
loriejones7
Yeah.
47:25.13
Elizabeth Bachman
this Life can be better. We could be better than this and be a channel for that.
47:28.58
loriejones7
Mmhmm.
47:31.15
Elizabeth Bachman
But if you gave people the direct inspiration from heaven or higher power, the universe, God, whatever you want to call it, um you drown them. You know, it's like hitting with the fire hose or making them stand under a waterfall. So our job as presenters, and this is the part I love, is to take that idea and shape it and craft it and hone it so that your delivery of that idea comes to people in a form that they can take in and go, ah, she's talking about me?
48:16.24
Elizabeth Bachman
I never thought of that, that it really reaches them from the heart. um If you want to use the waterfall metaphor, it takes the waterfall and hones it into that tall glass of cool water on a hot day.
48:32.27
loriejones7
Yeah.
48:33.63
Elizabeth Bachman
that That's what I'm about.
48:37.66
loriejones7
I love that thought. Elizabeth, did you end up facing any unique challenges because of your gender through your journey?
48:48.05
Elizabeth Bachman
Well, being one of the early the ah one of the early women and people saying, you know, is it strange?
48:51.60
loriejones7
Mm
48:55.84
Elizabeth Bachman
ah
48:59.04
loriejones7
-hmm.
48:59.14
Elizabeth Bachman
So I was always sort of fighting to be taken seriously. I remember in college, you know, say, oh, there she is, the dizzy blonde, you know, I had long blonde hair down to my down to my waist and and I like to run around death. I said, oh, you really are a space cadet, aren't you? I thought, no, I'm actually I like that part, but um there's a real brain under here.
49:24.94
loriejones7
All right.
49:25.22
Elizabeth Bachman
You know, I think about the um the movie Legally Blonde and Reese Witherspoon not being taken seriously because she's cute and blonde and she wears pink and um learning how to shift the way she was perceived by shifting the way she communicated, the way she showed up. ah
49:49.07
Elizabeth Bachman
So being taken seriously as an artist, as a business person. and you know And here's the other thing, that as a responsible working artist, which is something I'm very proud of, my job as a director was to was to have an idea about, say you have Madama Butterfly, for instance, and how what's what's the approach?
50:20.64
Elizabeth Bachman
How are we gonna tell this story? It's the director's idea.
50:24.45
loriejones7
man
50:24.76
Elizabeth Bachman
So have an idea, and then I meet with a group of really smart, really talented people, um most of whom thought they could do it better than I could, and convince them
50:36.23
loriejones7
Everybody does, right?
50:37.97
Elizabeth Bachman
yeah Yeah, convince them to work together torts towards an end. And then in the process, pulling the best out of each person as you go. So it's it's leading a team, just as it would be in ah in a business. And then delivering a result by the deadline.
50:54.33
loriejones7
Mmhmm.
50:54.54
Elizabeth Bachman
Because 8 o'clock Saturday night is going to roll around. And there are going to be people sitting in those seats who have paid a lot for those tickets. And on the other part of it, which a lot of working artists don't understand is I always thought, I always thought like a producer, I had to deliver the results, but also I was hired by an opera company to deliver a result that would so move and delight the audience that they would come back.
51:32.06
loriejones7
Mm-hmm.
51:32.91
Elizabeth Bachman
I had to, on that on the 30,000 foot level, I had to deliver a result that would get the audience so excited that they would write a check to support a company, that they would come back, that they would tell their friends, wow, you have to go see this Madama butterfly. You have to go see butterfly, I cried and cried and cried, or are there's something
51:54.09
loriejones7
like
51:59.81
Elizabeth Bachman
um One of the best compliments I ever got was doing Madama Butterfly and the artistic director director of another opera company had come because he wanted to check out the soprano. And, you know, it's one of those operas that's done over and over again.
52:13.96
loriejones7
and
52:18.04
Elizabeth Bachman
And he came up to me afterwards and he said, I cannot tell you how many thousand times I have seen this opera. There were two places that surprised me.
52:29.85
loriejones7
oh
52:30.90
Elizabeth Bachman
And I went, wow. You know, it's like being a Shakespeare specialist. There are only 26 plays. If you're in the opera, this really is the 30 operas that get done over and over.
52:37.34
loriejones7
Yeah.
52:40.93
loriejones7
Yeah.
52:41.42
Elizabeth Bachman
And that i there were two places that he was surprised was one of the biggest compliments I ever got.
52:49.60
loriejones7
Yeah. So, Elizabeth, what are you most proud of?
52:59.99
Elizabeth Bachman
that I kept going, that I kept going, that, you know, fell down and got back up again, and that I'm still going, and it that I watch my clients, the people I work with, I watch them change their lives. I watch them step into a level of skill that they used to think was impossible.
53:27.23
loriejones7
Mm-hmm.
53:28.48
Elizabeth Bachman
And thus as with any coach, you know that's that's the goal, is to pass on what I've learned. And so that it then becomes second nature.
53:38.45
loriejones7
Mm.
53:42.03
Elizabeth Bachman
um One more story, which is I had a wonderful client about four or five years ago now, who had been, ah she's ah she was an IT person, And she was stuck at the level of senior director for 13 years, taken for granted, always solving problems for the company.
54:00.16
loriejones7
Mm-hmm.
54:04.19
Elizabeth Bachman
And she finally got fed up. And somebody said, she talked to her friend, her friend said, go talk to Elizabeth Bachman.
54:11.58
loriejones7
Mm
54:12.22
Elizabeth Bachman
And she talked to me and she said, okay, there's this new thing, they want me to fix it. I know how to fix it, but I'm tired of not being recognized.
54:18.30
loriejones7
-hmm. Mm-hmm.
54:21.90
Elizabeth Bachman
And so we shifted the way she communicated. and ah And so the way she presented what she wanted to do, we framed it all as this is my strategic thinking. And then she went individually to everybody at in the C-suite and she framed it in a way that would speak to each that person.
54:45.54
loriejones7
hu
54:46.32
Elizabeth Bachman
and One person wanted to know the numbers. this is ah Tell the CFO this is the financial impact. Tell the COO, here's what we're going to do, but there's an operations thing. You know these people better than I do. Will you help me with this? And to get them all excited about the project, which is what she was going to do anyway, all excited about the project, and they were so
55:03.74
loriejones7
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. ah
55:12.39
Elizabeth Bachman
They were so happy about it that the next time the executive committee met, they created a new vice president position for her.
55:20.74
loriejones7
I
55:21.59
Elizabeth Bachman
Specifically for her. So she did what she was going to do anyway, but she got the raise, she got the promotion, she got the recognition.
55:29.80
loriejones7
love that.
55:30.88
Elizabeth Bachman
All because of the way she spoke about it. And that's the sort of thing that that's what makes my day.
55:37.44
loriejones7
Yeah. i I love it it. It reminds me a little bit of the same skills that you need to to be a mom. you know yeah You spend your whole life raising young adults that turn into baby adults, you know young children that turn into baby adults, turn into real adults that you want to go on and make a difference in this world.
55:45.01
Elizabeth Bachman
Mm-hmm.
55:57.88
loriejones7
So I love that.
55:59.13
Elizabeth Bachman
Exactly.
56:00.82
loriejones7
What about any advice for a young woman who's just starting down this path you're already so successful at? Is there anything you would tell her at the beginning of her journey?
56:11.71
Elizabeth Bachman
Ask for help. Look for mentors. Ask for help.
56:15.72
loriejones7
ah All the time, every day.
56:19.37
Elizabeth Bachman
Well, yeah, yeah but you don't have to do it alone. Yeah, look for help. Ask for mentors. Do the best you can.
56:27.73
loriejones7
And if I have a listener that wants to get a hold of you, Elizabeth, to ask for help or ask a question or, you know, help her down her journey, how does, how's the best way to connect with you?
56:39.76
Elizabeth Bachman
so The the thick place I'm easily found is on LinkedIn, and I'm Elizabeth with a Z and Bachman B-A-C-H-M-A-N. And just reach out to me in LinkedIn and say that you heard me on Lori's podcast, and I'd be happy to talk to you.
56:57.06
loriejones7
ah Thank you so, so much for taking this time out of your day and kind of just having this conversation. I really I feel like I've learned a lot and I've really grown. Thank you so much.
57:07.64
Elizabeth Bachman
Thank you, Lori.