In this episode, host Lorie Jones features Kathleen Burns Kingsbury, a passionate advocate for financial literacy and the author of Breaking Money Silence now in its second edition.
Kathleen shares her inspiring story of transitioning from banking and mental health counseling to empowering women in finance. She melds her expertise to help women open up about money, harness their worth, and build confident, financially empowered lives.
Whether you’re just starting your career or looking to break through financial taboos, this episode offers a wealth of knowledge and inspiration. Tune in and get ready to be fearless with Kathleen Burns Kingsbury.
- Show Highlights:
- Understand your money scripts with Ebenezer Scrooge. [00:03:21]
- Did you know you could shape your own expertise and job description? [00:09:54]
- How transformative coaching can ignite your true calling. [00:12:41]
- The power of self-permission to take on career pivots. [00:15:19]
- Is your marketing voice correct for your unique brand personality? [00:17:13]
- The importance of measured emotional responses at work. [00:23:20]
- Wisdom and hope for young women to navigate their 20s. [00:26:37]
- Lessons in fearlessness and embracing the unknown. [00:28:34]
- Why women must celebrate each other abundantly in male-dominated fields. [00:36:57]
- Advice for young women to make authentic choices. [00:43:07]To learn more about Kathleen Burns Kingsbury or to connect with her, visit https://kbkwealthconnection.com/ or https://www.linkedin.com/in/kathleenburnskingsbury/.
- Kathleen is offering a 10% discount on her book Breaking Money Silence and a free handout to help prepare for money conversations.
- If you enjoyed this episode, please go to Apple Podcasts and leave a review!
- For more information about Lorie Jones, go to http://fearless-females.com/.
00:02.16
Lorie Jones
Good morning. I'm so excited today to have Kathleen Burns Kingsbury on with us. She is a coach, a consultant and the author of Breaking Many Silence. So right up my alley, all of those things. that Thank you so much, Kathleen, for joining us today. I appreciate it.
00:19.95
Kathleen Kingsbury
Oh, thank you for having me. I can't wait to break money silence with you.
00:24.53
Lorie Jones
So my very first question, and this is probably going to be a really easy one for you, is I'm a reader. I love books. What's your favorite book?
00:34.19
Kathleen Kingsbury
Well, believe it or not, it's I do like my book, but it's going to be someone else's book.
00:38.39
Lorie Jones
Oh, i I never would have guessed.
00:38.50
Kathleen Kingsbury
ah
00:40.39
Lorie Jones
Honestly, I was guessing yours. So tell me about it.
00:43.25
Kathleen Kingsbury
So um the book there are two books that come to mind. And one is called The Financial Wisdom of Ebenezer Scrooge. It is in the field of money psychology, which is where I specialize. um And it is written by Rick Kahler and ah Ted and Brad Klontz. And the reason I love this book is it is the the book that I found when I discovered this whole field of money psychology.
01:10.17
Kathleen Kingsbury
And so I love how simple it is because it's based on a Christmas carol, um but it talks about money scripts and how we think and feel about money. And it just was a book that was really an aha moment for me um when I needed it.
01:23.17
Kathleen Kingsbury
And certainly 20 something years later, after reading it, um you know we're going to talk a little bit about where I went from there.
01:26.70
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
01:31.37
Kathleen Kingsbury
The second book that also was pretty pivotal for me, and and both of these are older books, is Overcoming Under Earning. And um it's by Barbara Stani. Her name is now Barbara Houston. She got remarried. um But it's a classic book about how women tend to undercharge and what you can do about it. And certainly, um when I started my business, I was one of those women.
01:54.67
Lorie Jones
Yeah, I, I think not only do women undercharge in their business, but they also like undervalue themselves as far as you negotiating salaries and stuff like that, you know, like they, they don't, they don't negotiate what they're worth. A lot of times they undercharge themselves.
02:13.41
Kathleen Kingsbury
Yeah, it is' it's interesting because I've been looking at women in their relationship with money and their psychology for a long time now. And yes, there is older demographics are typically not negotiating their salary.
02:28.17
Kathleen Kingsbury
um are undercharging. I still think that happens to a lot of entrepreneurs when they start ah their business. It's kind of part of what you need to work through. But some of the research that's coming out recently is saying that ah Gen Zs and those following them are starting to actually negotiate just as much if not more than men, which is awesome because that would be great if we changed that story.
02:55.83
Kathleen Kingsbury
ah But yes, it's something that I struggled with and something that I help women with all the time.
02:55.78
Lorie Jones
yeah I love the year two suggestions kind of around your focus area of money psychology. I love that field. I i like ah learning how we think about money and, and ah you know, some of those hidden things inside of our brain that we don't realize that we're doing.
03:20.09
Lorie Jones
but are coming out in our lives. and And sometimes to our detriment, sometimes to our, you know, if you get them under control, sometimes to our benefit, but I love that. I'm gonna put those on my list. I've got a stack this big, so.
03:34.85
Kathleen Kingsbury
Well, they're good ones. if you If you added a current one, i I'd go with Money Psychology, um which is the brand new one. And it literally, that's the name of it. When I say brand new, I guess it's about a year old now. But um all really good books. And I find, you know, if I do say so myself, I find my field fascinating, um which certainly makes going to work a little bit easier.
03:55.33
Lorie Jones
I know I love people that love what they do it always excites me and energizes me so Kathleen tell me a little bit about your journey, how did you get where you're at today where did you start and kind of what do you do.
04:07.56
Kathleen Kingsbury
So I'll give you the short version. It was a very crooked path. um I actually have been in the field of banking and finance. I've also been a clinical mental health counselor. And then in 2009, I created ah KBK Wealth Connection, which is my current consulting, coaching, and training firm. And ah what KBK Wealth Connection does is it takes everything that I love from banking and finance. So that's financial education empowerment.
04:36.88
Kathleen Kingsbury
Everything I love from the field of psychology, which I find people fascinating. I find dynamics fascinating. And certainly our relationship with money ah is something that um is less explored.
04:45.52
Lorie Jones
What.
04:49.20
Kathleen Kingsbury
So that I found that interesting. And I combine the two. And that's when I started my um company. And so um how I got here, I'll go back to the book real quick, The Financial Wisdom of Ebenezer Scrooge.
05:03.64
Kathleen Kingsbury
My husband and I, I can't even remember what year it is. It was probably 2006, 2007, decided to put an addition on our home. We lived outside of Boston at the time. and so We interviewed a bunch of contractors. ah you know I was a former FDIC bank examiner, so thought I could do no wrong financially. and We decided to hire our neighbor.
05:25.79
Kathleen Kingsbury
Well, you flash forward three months and what ended up happening was our neighbor started our project, our neighbor abandoned our project and took a large sum of money from us. So there we were, my husband and I, his name's Brian, standing there thinking, how did this happen to us? I mean, we both are pretty business savvy. ah Brian probably um is somebody who will give somebody a second chance a little quicker than I, which is a nice quality. um But I got bamboozled too. And so in our shock and in our frustration, I started to look at, well, what was my role in this? And why is it if I'm financially literate, did I get ripped off? And that's when I found this book, The Financial Wisdom of Ebenezer Scrooge. And that's when I stumbled on the field of money psychology.
06:11.15
Kathleen Kingsbury
So at the time i was working clinically and i was working in the field of eating disorders which is really about ah women and how they feel about themselves but the symptom is eating not eating or you know other types of behaviors whereas with money psychology is often about how we feel about ourselves but they're different symptoms and different behaviors.
06:32.29
Kathleen Kingsbury
So it was right then and over the course of the next year as we recovered from this financial loss that I realized, whoa, I think this is a perfect field for me because it combines all my interests. And certainly when I graduated from college in the 80s, there was nobody who was like a money psychologist.
06:50.79
Kathleen Kingsbury
ah
06:51.33
Lorie Jones
so
06:51.49
Kathleen Kingsbury
um So that's kind of how I got here. And then I am so fortunate over the last two decades to be able to have published several books, ah to train advisors in the US and Canada, and also to work with a lot of entrepreneurial women and women advisors to help them um ask and get paid what they're worth.
07:11.54
Lorie Jones
I think that's great. I love that. So did you go to college for that? There was no degree. Like you said, there's no degree for money psychology. In fact, I'm now there is, I think, but it was a long time in the coming. So what did you, what did you go to college for?
07:26.61
Kathleen Kingsbury
So most people that are in the field that are my age are self-taught. And so I have an undergrad in finance.
07:32.92
Lorie Jones
Okay.
07:35.74
Lorie Jones
Uh-huh.
07:35.97
Kathleen Kingsbury
I really thought I wanted to work on Wall Street and I wanted to be in banking and finance. And I think if I had ended up on the consumer side of things, like a branch manager or something like that, it would have enough people stuff that I might have really enjoyed it.
07:48.93
Kathleen Kingsbury
um But I ended up on the auditing side. um So I have the financial understanding. I can balance a bank, although I haven't done it in years. So I know enough.
07:57.33
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
07:58.71
Kathleen Kingsbury
I also understand the field. My master's degree is in counseling psychology.
08:00.96
Lorie Jones
Mm-hmm.
08:04.99
Kathleen Kingsbury
And when I was working at the FDIC, again, not a linear choice or a typical choice, I started to study psychology at the master's level and decided to quit. and get my degree and start a clinical practice. And so I really thought at that point in time I had pivoted and that was my last pivot and that was going to be it.
08:25.56
Kathleen Kingsbury
um But then in about 2007, eight, I started to burn out. um I love my clients, but it's a really tough industry to be in mental health.
08:34.88
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
08:35.55
Kathleen Kingsbury
And I started to look for what else could I do that I was passionate about where I was still helping people, but I could draw on this business side that I had. And that's when I discovered wealth psychology.
08:46.78
Lorie Jones
I love it. it so You essentially like made up your own job description. like You found your perfect spot and kind of built your job around that.
08:58.12
Kathleen Kingsbury
Yes. And I think anybody listening in, you can do it. um i wasn't the i wasn't on the I wasn't the first to the party, so to speak, but it was a very, very grassroots organization.
09:09.81
Kathleen Kingsbury
And the authors that I mentioned at the beginning, especially Ted Klontz and Rick Kahler were really on the ground floor. um They talk about it in terms of financial psychology. I tend to talk about it in terms of unleash your true value coaching.
09:23.25
Lorie Jones
Mm-hmm.
09:23.31
Kathleen Kingsbury
um But basically, ah Yeah, we all just networked and figured it out and applied the, you know, I was clinically trained, worked for 15 years. So I applied those concepts to how advisors would work with their clients, how men and women and couples would interact around money.
09:36.89
Lorie Jones
Mm-hmm.
09:38.64
Kathleen Kingsbury
And um certainly just did the next thing that I thought made sense, not only for my heart, but also ah what I felt like the market would compensate me for.
09:49.72
Kathleen Kingsbury
And I am very happy to report that it worked out.
09:52.61
Lorie Jones
That's great. I love it. Like I said, I love people that are passionate about that what they do, who love what they do, and you can feel that coming off of you. So tell me a little bit, what is there an investment that you've made in your career journey where you're like, Oh, I am so glad I did that. If I hadn't have had made that investment in myself, I don't think I'd be where I'm at today.
10:16.65
Kathleen Kingsbury
That's a great question. I think it goes back to, well, I've done coaching throughout my life, not me coaching other people, but I'm hiring a coach. And it goes back to the first coach I hired, Wendy Hanson, shout out to Wendy Hanson, because she's still out there coaching. And basically what I did was I called her up and I said, I don't know if I want to just be a therapist and by no means am I minimizing, that's really hard work.
10:44.99
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
10:45.30
Kathleen Kingsbury
Do I just want to be a therapist or do I want to be a national speaker and trainer? I said, I don't know. And she goes, well, let's do some coaching around it. And the the first thing she ever said to me was, what if for three months or six months you just said, you know what? I'm going to try to be this national speaker.
11:03.69
Kathleen Kingsbury
And you just decide, you know, I had a part time practice at that time clinically, you put the therapy stuff aside and see what it's like. And she gave me permission to do it. And she also gave me permission to not do it forever. And that was super duper helpful. So we had a very great relationship. And so over time, the thing that I have invested in the most other than like you know website and marketing, is really when I feel like I need one um or want one, I will hire a coach. So I've worked with Wendy in the beginning of my own business. I've worked with a speaking coach for eight years to become a better keynote and workshop presenter. I've worked ah most recently with somebody who really helped me transition from pre-pandemic of being on the road all the time um to what I'm doing now, which is much more virtual training.
11:54.84
Kathleen Kingsbury
ah and virtual coaching um so there's just pivot times where I thought it made sense and and I have to tell you sometimes because I can be a little cheap um the sticker shock of coaching sometimes you're like whoa but each time I invested that money in myself it definitely has come back you know at least double, if not triple, quadruple because it's allowed me to get to that next level in my career and also get to the next level of ah where my revenue would be or currently is.
12:26.96
Kathleen Kingsbury
Yeah.
12:26.94
Lorie Jones
Yeah. Yeah. I love that idea. i you know i've I also have invested in coaches. and And that idea of having someone outside with a little bit higher view, kind of looking down and saying, hey, what if you tried this?
12:39.08
Lorie Jones
And I love that she said, just try it three months. Just try it six months. Just see if it works. Because we're so willing to just take that little step and see, hey,
12:48.75
Kathleen Kingsbury
Yep.
12:50.37
Lorie Jones
If it doesn't work, I always go, what's the worst that could happen?
12:55.66
Lorie Jones
What's the worst that can happen?
12:56.58
Kathleen Kingsbury
but
12:56.55
Lorie Jones
You can go back to your, your, uh, clinical and, and you know, pick that back up again.
13:02.26
Kathleen Kingsbury
Well, and I did it 50-50 like I had 20 hours clinical. So that's probably two or three days. And then I did the rest of the time on KBK wealth connection. And then at some point I did have to make a choice in order to make it work. And it wasn't an easy choice because you know you're helping people on an intimate level. But in terms of deciding what was going to be best for me and my career and what was going to make sense was to say goodbye to the clinical work and to um kind of jump off a cliff in slow motion ah and figure out if this whole business thing was going to work.
13:37.88
Lorie Jones
I was gonna say, that sounds a little fearless to me.
13:38.10
Kathleen Kingsbury
um
13:40.60
Lorie Jones
It sounds like you're just standing right up there at the precipice going, oh my gosh, I hope this works.
13:47.61
Kathleen Kingsbury
Well, and what is interesting for people who are thinking about doing that and what happened for me is so my first jump off a cliff was from a government job, right? FDIC, good pay, good benefits, could retire really young. I probably, I'm well past retirement age, I think, according to the FDIC. And um I had to leave that. So that was the first jump when I went back to school and then so went clinically, which obviously mental health counselors make a little bit less than what bankers make. It shouldn't be, but that's where this field is at.
14:16.85
Lorie Jones
um Yeah.
14:17.58
Kathleen Kingsbury
So I had already done a jump, so when I made the next leap, it was still really scary, but it was a little easier, because I was like, last time I landed on my feet, I think I'll land on my feet, and then you have to really um remain flexible. You also should financially prepare for, hey, for six to 12 months, I'm not gonna make any money. you know You might make a little, but it's just natural to go down before you're then ah able to go up.
14:46.01
Lorie Jones
Just spin it up.
14:47.33
Kathleen Kingsbury
Yeah.
14:49.11
Lorie Jones
Kathleen, what is the worst advice that someone gave you? Did you ever get really bad advice and did you take it or did you not take it?
14:58.35
Kathleen Kingsbury
What comes to mind, I'm going to go just with what popped into my mind, is ah I, at some point during that transition from therapist to KBK wealth connection, hired a coach who she wasn't ill-intended, but we ended up together creating this whole website and this whole um I don't even know what the message was, but this whole message, and instead of listening to my gut, I listened to her, and I ended up with this website. It probably was only up there for like three months. It wasn't me. It didn't resonate with me. It didn't feel good to me, but I thought intellectually, well, this is what I'm supposed to do if I want to be a speaker in this industry.
15:43.82
Kathleen Kingsbury
um And so I think the key takeaway for me is, yeah, there's rational analysis when you make a business choice. But I think, I know I have a great gut sense and I know a lot of women have a great gut sense.
15:58.19
Kathleen Kingsbury
And if that is telling you something, listen to it. And so each time I've listened to my gut, I've made a good decision for myself and my business. um I have to say that's the one that stands out that was like just, I don't know what I was thinking.
16:07.57
Lorie Jones
Mm-hmm.
16:12.83
Kathleen Kingsbury
um So that's probably the worst decision or worst advice I got, even though she's a good coach, that I listened to cost me a little bit, but in the long run it taught me to listen to my gut.
16:24.47
Lorie Jones
How was it not aligned with the way that you were authentically the website?
16:31.24
Kathleen Kingsbury
So it didn't really incorporate the psychology piece and it was very um salesy, which is ironic because now I'm coaching people to unleash your true value and earn more. And so some of that is sales and business development.
16:40.78
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
16:43.30
Kathleen Kingsbury
um However, it my program now and so is very, very different. um than how I was presented. It was almost like I bought into the idea that, okay, there's psychology in sales and so I can just become a sales coach and speak on sales and that's going to get me in front of, I don't even think it was for financial advisors, which was where I ended up.
17:04.99
Kathleen Kingsbury
um And so it was it just wasn't a good match. even ah you know I'll tell you a story quick story. So I had a former clinical client. you know You have to say goodbye to all your clients, which was the hardest part about closing a practice because I worked with wonderful people. And this one client saw my new website and she emailed me. And she you know was really upset because I don't even know who that person is.
17:29.50
Kathleen Kingsbury
And so it was upsetting that i was closing my practice and so that was part of it for her but there was also part of it that she was spot on like who was that person and i ended up figuring out out over time that i needed to do a little bit more self exploration and figure out.
17:45.46
Kathleen Kingsbury
what did the client what did the advisors need from me or the banking space? like What did they need from me? that Where was the gap? And then how could I authentically fill that gap? And what I'm so happy about is when I step off stage or when I work with somebody one on one, often the compliment I get is you're just so you. You're the same on stage as you are in person. You're just genuine. And I feel like that website wasn't genuine. um And again, not a bad coach, just not the coach for me.
18:15.54
Lorie Jones
Yeah. Yeah. It's, and it's really hard. I've heard that, you know, like the idea of like trust your gut and be there and understand that's really hard when you're younger. That's, it's really hard to not take someone's advice who's doing this for a living or has been there and trust your own gut when, when you're, when you're so new.
18:36.57
Kathleen Kingsbury
Absolutely, I mean, I i think um that what ends up happening when you're in your, like I find the 20s, early 30s, but 20s especially very challenging in terms of you're trying to figure out who you are, ah what you're if you're a career person, what your career is gonna look like, who you wanna spend your time with, if you wanna get married, if you don't, there's so much going on, like even just getting your own apartment.
18:58.80
Lorie Jones
Right here.
19:00.85
Kathleen Kingsbury
um And so it's a time of a lot of change and uncertainty. um I do think it's harder when you're younger to listen to your gut, but I also think that by hiring or working with, it doesn't have to be hiring mentors or women who have done it before you, um what you'll notice if you have a good mentor or a good coach, it isn't them telling you what to do. It's them asking you a series of questions to help you uncover what you think or feel you should do.
19:32.58
Kathleen Kingsbury
And I think if we could do that a little bit more with younger women, um that would be great. And I try to do that, like I'm a very part-time college professor ah at Champlain University. I teach ah business strategy negotiation.
19:48.26
Kathleen Kingsbury
And it's all online. I would love to see the students in person, but I don't because I got hired during the pandemic and that's where the spot was. ah But you can mentor somebody as a college professor or just as, you know, I'm an aunt and I have one niece.
20:03.45
Kathleen Kingsbury
And so there's a variety of ways in which you can do it to help people start to trust their own instincts. But yes, I think it's hard early on. A little easier ah in your fifties, but not, not foolproof still, but still easier.
20:10.03
Lorie Jones
oh
20:12.35
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
20:14.64
Lorie Jones
Yeah. Yeah. You still learn things about yourself for sure. And I think I like that idea of like questioning to bring out what they want to do because a lot of times, yeah, deep down, and they kind of do know who they were meant to be, or at least by their twenties, early thirties, they have an idea of what they're really good at.
20:36.23
Kathleen Kingsbury
Yeah, and if you were and if you're confused about it, I think part of you know what I would love to have done a little bit differently is not have so much angst about it.
20:36.22
Lorie Jones
So.
20:45.41
Kathleen Kingsbury
like I knew I wasn't in the right profession when I worked for the FDIC. It wasn't that I wasn't good at it. It wasn't that I didn't get promoted. Something didn't feel right. like Other people seemed to be really jazzed about it, and I wasn't.
20:57.08
Kathleen Kingsbury
um And so instead of having so much angst and feeling like what's wrong with me, I wish that I could have um just thought there's nothing wrong with me. It's just I might want something a little bit different.
21:10.96
Lorie Jones
So. If you could look back on your professional journey and you could see a spot where you're like, oh my goodness. If I knew then that all the things that I know now, I totally would have handled that situation differently. Is there something you can think of?
21:28.35
Kathleen Kingsbury
i Yes, I'm trying to think of how to frame it because it's happened in different ways. um Because I'm somebody who ah is intuitive and somebody who enjoys um talking to people about their feelings, I tend to be also a very feeling-oriented person. And so certainly early on in my career,
21:50.27
Kathleen Kingsbury
um taking things a little too personally or or even being kind of reactive. like For instance, you get an email and instead of sitting and being like, okay, I have feelings about that email.
22:04.01
Kathleen Kingsbury
I'm going to take a walk or I'm going to get back that tomorrow morning. um I am a quick, like I'm an action-oriented person.
22:08.89
Lorie Jones
Mm hmm.
22:11.70
Kathleen Kingsbury
it's like There are times where I would send back an email that
22:11.85
Lorie Jones
Mm hmm.
22:16.10
Kathleen Kingsbury
Now I would cringe if I think about it. like All I needed to do was spend an hour away from that email and I could have done something that I think would have been more emotionally intelligent. um So I would say those are the things. you know The other thing is, and it also goes with emotions, is, um and I was coaching a woman the other day on this, is you know when you don't make a sale, whether it's a speaking engagement, you know a large contract with a consulting firm or something else, ah in the beginning it was so hard to hear no.
22:47.89
Kathleen Kingsbury
And now I'd rather get to know sooner so then I can move on to the next. It feels less personal than it used to, and it feels more like, okay, I can see it from their side of the table and why this might not work right now for them.
23:03.13
Kathleen Kingsbury
um So really being able to just ah be less reactive, embrace when something doesn't work, and learn from it as opposed to beat myself up about it. Those are the things.
23:13.13
Lorie Jones
oh I love all those things. I wish I was 100% on them. and like i Like the idea of, you know, getting to know sooner rather than taking it personally, you know, that's, it's hard.
23:24.62
Lorie Jones
That's a hard skill.
23:24.81
Kathleen Kingsbury
and is hard
23:26.30
Lorie Jones
So, but I love it.
23:28.00
Kathleen Kingsbury
Well, and what I encourage people to do is yeah I'm not saying don't have feelings about it. I mean, that if I stuff my feelings, I'm not a fun person to be around.
23:36.66
Lorie Jones
ah
23:36.84
Kathleen Kingsbury
ah So it's like giving your yourself space, but instead of you know grieving it for a week, Maybe you talk to your girlfriend, you journal about it, you pout about it a little. um Maybe it's an hour, maybe it's a day, but don't let it drag on forever because If you adjust your mindset and you're able to bounce back and be more resilient, um you're less miserable.
24:02.22
Kathleen Kingsbury
Your business is more successful. But it's a skill you have to learn.
24:04.56
Lorie Jones
Thank you.
24:05.57
Kathleen Kingsbury
So if you're in that or occasionally get in that, that means you're human.
24:09.81
Lorie Jones
just
24:09.99
Kathleen Kingsbury
And so it's just you know trying to tweak a few things to figure out how to shorten that process. But I think we definitely should feel rejected or whatever we're feeling because that stinks.
24:21.51
Kathleen Kingsbury
It doesn't feel good for someone to be like, no, I don't want to work with you.
24:24.44
Lorie Jones
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, just maybe putting a boundary there between taking it personally and yeah, getting in your feelings for weeks and weeks rather than kind of learning and moving on.
24:33.80
Kathleen Kingsbury
Yeah, yep. That's a great way of putting it. Yeah, boundaries around how much energy, time, and space is actually going to be useful to process it versus then it becomes kind of not useful and destructive and distracting.
24:46.32
Lorie Jones
Yeah. Kathleen, if you could go back and talk to yourself at the beginning of your journey when you were like 20, 21, 22, 23, somewhere around there, what would you tell her?
24:52.60
Kathleen Kingsbury
Yep. I would tell her that she was worth it. that she didn't have to look a certain way, didn't have to act a certain way, and didn't have to fit in to be worthy. um I struggled a lot in my teens and twenties. I actually had an eating disorder because I tried to fit into what I thought everybody else wanted me to be.
25:23.52
Kathleen Kingsbury
um And so I would tell that young girl who was probably very afraid um to be herself that no matter who she is, she's worth it.
25:35.50
Lorie Jones
Well, that leads really well into the next question, which is what scared you the most when you started on your journey and you can take like any phase of, of your growth, but, and does it still scare you?
25:45.65
Kathleen Kingsbury
Yeah.
25:50.71
Kathleen Kingsbury
So let me just say one thing that I think is important. I fully recovered from my eating disorders and my no i my in my like late because some people don't feel you know might be curious about that.
25:59.94
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
26:02.23
Kathleen Kingsbury
so um And I think that experience allowed me to develop emotional intelligence.
26:02.66
Lorie Jones
Yeah. No.
26:06.51
Kathleen Kingsbury
It allowed me to really know who I am. And while I don't wish it on anybody, um I did get to the other side.
26:13.06
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
26:13.19
Kathleen Kingsbury
um
26:13.78
Lorie Jones
And that is, uh, that you can't emphasize enough how hard that is.
26:17.71
Kathleen Kingsbury
Mm-hmm.
26:18.13
Lorie Jones
Like I've had nieces and, and, um, kids and, and, you know, other women in my life. that have have suffered from some of those things.
26:28.43
Lorie Jones
And it's so difficult.
26:28.74
Kathleen Kingsbury
yeah
26:30.74
Lorie Jones
It's so difficult to recover from, to come out of. You need the help and be so proud of yourself for having done that.
26:37.15
Kathleen Kingsbury
Oh, thank you. Yeah, yeah, I am. um i That other person, it's kind of like she's she's over here and it feels very disconnected from who I am now yeah in a positive way.
26:49.21
Kathleen Kingsbury
um But certainly I do believe in full recovery and I do think that anybody out there who's struggling, um help is the way, I mean, that's why I specialize in eating disorders for 15 years.
26:59.51
Lorie Jones
Mm hmm.
26:59.70
Kathleen Kingsbury
um I think you really can get help and get better. um With that said, certainly being scared is something I'm familiar with. I would say that one of the scariest things I ever did in my career, and at this point, I I was speaking, it was my first main stage keynote. So I don't know, maybe a thousand people in the audience. ah And I was hired to do a 45-minute keynote by a sponsor. And I can just remember how long that day was to get to that presentation, how I hardly remember being on stage. I mean, there are pictures, so I know I was up there.
27:44.05
Kathleen Kingsbury
I did okay um and I got off stage and I survived. and Even though speaking and keynote speaking scared me in the beginning, there was a part of me that just really wanted to do it. and so Each time I did it, I became less and less scared.
28:03.23
Kathleen Kingsbury
It would be a lie to say that if I do a keynote presentation that at times I'm not excited to get on stage or maybe a little nervous about the engagement at some point and prep for it. um But I've learned to manage that fear.
28:17.46
Lorie Jones
Mm hmm.
28:18.21
Kathleen Kingsbury
One of the things that has helped me is I am a pretty avid alpine skier and in the summer a mountain biker.
28:25.46
Lorie Jones
Mm hmm.
28:26.98
Kathleen Kingsbury
And so there's a lot of like ah you know challenges, whether it's going down a double black diamond trail or whether it's you know hitting a rock and and falling down and having to get back up if I'm mountain biking. All of those things have taught me that you know even if I fall in my face in front of a speaking audience, I can get back up. I can continue doing what I'm doing. And so um by embracing kind of that unknown, the I'm less scared. I'm just like, you know what? And usually I'm pretty good at pivoting. Something goes wrong. I make a joke out of it.
29:05.00
Kathleen Kingsbury
And over time, like anything, public speaking is a muscle. And so that's the thing that used to scare me the most that um really doesn't anymore. But I still do get a little bit of anxiety um before a big engagement. And I think that's good. That makes me better. And it shows that I care.
29:23.51
Lorie Jones
It feels like a lot of times if you're not just a tiny bit scared, maybe you're not pushing your boundaries.
29:30.23
Kathleen Kingsbury
Yeah, and I always do that. You know, it's so funny because I i always do that naturally. So whether it is um skiing, whether it's I took up ah horseback riding when I was 50.
29:45.11
Lorie Jones
Congratulations.
29:45.78
Kathleen Kingsbury
Yeah, why not? um I just was always interested. And while that may sound easy to anybody who rides and started as a kid or even started later, it was a natural rider. It was not a natural rider.
29:57.13
Kathleen Kingsbury
So it was, I'm not kidding you, two summers to learn how to trot, not a natural rider. But I conquered it and I faced that fear. And yes, I wanted to quit at a certain point when this 14-year-old just showed up the first day of lessons and just like started trotting. I was like, you've got to...
30:16.86
Lorie Jones
where is the justice in this universe hu
30:18.85
Kathleen Kingsbury
what But what I realized is all my other sports and everything I do in life, including my business, I push, push, push through. And with a horse, you push. And the horse is like, I don't think so.
30:33.14
Kathleen Kingsbury
So I learned a lot from that experience. So I keep kind of wanting to do something new, otherwise I get bored. So I think that's what keeps me going as an entrepreneur and as a person.
30:43.33
Lorie Jones
Hmm, I like that. to Kind of keeping yourself on the edge of challenging, and not terrified, want to crawl, you know, in a hole somewhere and hide, but the challenging constantly.
30:51.34
Kathleen Kingsbury
Yes.
30:55.01
Kathleen Kingsbury
Challenging, and I also think i as I have gotten to this phase of my life and my career, I also have allowed myself, which can be scary in a different way, um to take more time, to allow myself space to enjoy, to take Wednesday mornings to go skiing with a girlfriend.
31:14.30
Kathleen Kingsbury
That would have terrified me in my 30s. I would have thought, well, I'm going to fail. And now I think, oh, I'm just going to feel more creative and energized on Thursdays.
31:17.78
Lorie Jones
um um
31:22.97
Kathleen Kingsbury
um So it's fear comes in all different shapes and sizes.
31:23.05
Lorie Jones
i
31:26.50
Lorie Jones
Yeah, it does. And, and I, I resonate really well with the idea of like, it's scary to stop working. Like it's scary to take time out and build time in for thinking or dreaming or just being.
31:34.32
Kathleen Kingsbury
yeah
31:42.01
Lorie Jones
And that that's, that's scary at this stage of life. So I think that's
31:46.66
Kathleen Kingsbury
Yeah, and i I think when you're career oriented, and we also live in a culture, depending on your industry too, where it's like being busy is valued. So if all of a sudden you have free time, it's gotten kind of convoluted that somehow that's a bad thing, when in fact that's where creativity happens, that's where we reset, that's where we connect with people.
31:56.27
Lorie Jones
Mm hmm.
32:06.25
Lorie Jones
Hmm.
32:06.65
Kathleen Kingsbury
There's so much that's good about that. um But as a driven person, that's a lesson I had to learn a little bit later. And I do think having a global pandemic, while I don't wish it on anybody, um allowed me to slow down enough to be like, huh, this isn't so bad.
32:23.45
Lorie Jones
Maybe I could do this a little bit, not all the time. but ah So did you face any unique challenges through your journey because you were a woman?
32:26.54
Kathleen Kingsbury
Not all the time.
32:36.47
Kathleen Kingsbury
It's an interesting question because I work a lot with women in male um-dominated industries to help them navigate that. um I would have to say yes, but I'm also fortunate in that I always worked externally so I could either not work with that client, I could distance myself, um but I am sure I'm trying to think of a concrete example. I am sure, and in fact, this has happened, where they're considering you for speaking engagement and say it's the keynote, for because they usually they budget for keynote, and it's a keynote presentation, and then they ask you to do it for free or just for travel, and then you find out that the male speaker is being paid top dollar, and you're like,
33:24.46
Kathleen Kingsbury
Wait a second. and that was That was an aha moment that I had probably 15 years ago where I thought, I have to do a lot better advocating for myself and um making sure that my fees are competitive. and so I think there is a way in which being a female in the financial industry, whether it's my role or actually being an advisor, um there is still a lot of bias. and Some of it's overt and some of it's pretty covert.
33:52.36
Kathleen Kingsbury
um so It's unfortunate, I wish it wasn't there, but I definitely think that's impacted me in terms of just who I could work with, the level of respect I potentially got, um but I never let it get me down.
34:07.47
Kathleen Kingsbury
I also think there probably were times when being a female might've been an advantage.
34:09.04
Lorie Jones
Mm
34:12.43
Kathleen Kingsbury
I actually was the first keynote speaker that was a female in 2015 at a banker's conference.
34:12.48
Lorie Jones
hmm.
34:20.39
Lorie Jones
Wow.
34:21.03
Kathleen Kingsbury
which I didn't know at the time, which is both horrifying because it was 2015.
34:25.89
Lorie Jones
Hello.
34:26.44
Kathleen Kingsbury
And also kind of nice, like, okay, I'm breaking through a ceiling here.
34:26.63
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
34:31.51
Kathleen Kingsbury
But yeah, I think it's... it's It's hard to be a woman in a male-dominated industry, but we can't give up because I really feel like we have the skills to balance it off, what people who identify as male have, and we have some unique abilities.
34:48.11
Kathleen Kingsbury
um And I'm for inclusive, diverse, like I'm by no means am I anti-guy.
34:53.86
Lorie Jones
right
34:54.53
Kathleen Kingsbury
um But I do think some of the bias that's out there is, and I'm a white woman so I can only imagine um and have certainly talked to friends who have similar careers that are black or women of color um and their bias is even stronger.
35:08.66
Lorie Jones
Yeah, minorities a lot of times deal with even even harder issues sometimes than we do. But um I think it's important, though, that you do get up on that stage, because as the person who goes to those conferences and sees the the keynote speakers, like, especially in financial services, you see a steady stream of people that don't look like me up on this page. And it's nice to have and see successful women and see them be successful and and
35:44.17
Lorie Jones
and pass that on and then you can look and say, I could be like her one day.
35:49.30
Kathleen Kingsbury
Yeah.
35:49.26
Lorie Jones
so
35:49.84
Kathleen Kingsbury
And so with that in mind, the thing that I would encourage people to do is hang out with other women who can celebrate your success. you know In addition to coaching, I have managed for the most part to surround myself with other business women who may do something similar to what I do, or maybe even it's different, but we're lifting each other up.
36:09.99
Kathleen Kingsbury
And unfortunately, that isn't how all women feel about it. um And, you know, if you've heard of the Queen Bee syndrome where somebody is kind of like, hey, there's only one spot I want it. Hopefully that's dying with the newer generation. um But I really found that when I celebrated ah with my girlfriends and with my colleagues in the industry and out of the industry, when I raised my rates, when I landed a big engagement, when I shifted gears and launched a new website for coaching,
36:40.28
Kathleen Kingsbury
That that support of a female community around you meant to I have great men in my life as well ah but that really made a huge difference because ah I Really believe we shouldn't be bringing each other down.
36:54.74
Kathleen Kingsbury
We should be lifting each other up. There's enough to go around Yeah
36:57.95
Lorie Jones
Oh, yeah, that that abundance mentality that, um you know, that yeah, sure, there's only one seat at the table now. But imagine when we have three, let's make that happen.
37:08.38
Kathleen Kingsbury
yeah Well, and sometimes there are three, we just think about it in old fashioned terms. And that's where I think the next generation coming up and a lot of your listeners can keep in mind that, um and I think they already do because their generation is ah just very much more inclusive than I'm an old Gen Xer, almost boomer ah than we were.
37:24.79
Lorie Jones
Yeah, they're good.
37:31.50
Kathleen Kingsbury
And so, ah Yeah, I think we need to surround ourselves with a whole community that's going to celebrate success, not to try to tear us down and be jealous of it.
37:40.09
Lorie Jones
Yeah, I love that. ah Amen.
37:42.85
Kathleen Kingsbury
so
37:44.80
Lorie Jones
Kathleen, what is the thing that you are most proud of?
37:46.35
Kathleen Kingsbury
Oh, that's a hard one. I'm going to.
37:58.76
Kathleen Kingsbury
Well, I'm most proud of me for sticking in here for so many years and making it work and listening um to myself and to strategically growing a business that I think has been quite successful. I think if we have to pick something concrete, I would say I'm most proud of publishing um so much thought leadership in this space and having an influence as somebody who is a published author. um My book, Breaking Money Silence, which was my fifth book and it was published in 2017, is being re-released next year or this year, 2025. And um it's the book I'm most proud of and I think it's the reason I'm most proud of that particular book is because not only
38:48.59
Kathleen Kingsbury
Is it well researched and it speaks to a problem and in the industry and offers a solution to clients as well as advisors? It also comes from the heart.
38:59.91
Kathleen Kingsbury
Like if you look at my first couple of books, they're more up here.
38:59.92
Lorie Jones
Uh huh.
39:03.76
Lorie Jones
Uh huh.
39:04.11
Kathleen Kingsbury
Breaking Money Silence was from the heart.
39:06.14
Lorie Jones
Uh huh.
39:06.21
Kathleen Kingsbury
And so I think that, if I had to say something concrete, is the book I'm most proud of. um But ultimately, I'm most proud that I'm still hanging in there. I'm still getting hired.
39:17.99
Kathleen Kingsbury
I'm still creating something that um I think is needed in the marketplace and still feeds my soul.
39:18.22
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
39:23.67
Kathleen Kingsbury
And while that's less concrete, I think that's having an impact is certainly something that's always fueling.
39:28.40
Lorie Jones
yeah
39:30.74
Lorie Jones
Yeah, I love that. I love that idea. We are all, you know, a lot of times I'll ask that question. And if they have kids, women will say, I'm so proud of my kids. And I think it comes from the same space.
39:40.42
Kathleen Kingsbury
yeah
39:42.24
Lorie Jones
Like we're proud of what we've created. We're proud of what we've put out in this world. We're proud of the impact that it's making in the world. And it doesn't matter whether it's, you know, a book or a kid or a career or a product or anything, like we're
39:56.51
Kathleen Kingsbury
yeah
39:59.86
Lorie Jones
We're so proud of that that idea of being in the world and growing and and and gaining and making the world a little bit better. So I love that.
40:10.36
Kathleen Kingsbury
Yeah, and and quickly, i um I've actually received feedback from people who have seen me speak or I've trained or taught them because I'm very open that I don't have kids.
40:21.07
Kathleen Kingsbury
I have a furry daughter, Ashley. And I know that's very, very different.
40:24.10
Lorie Jones
It takes just as much time, about half the time, I think,
40:27.69
Kathleen Kingsbury
No, I don't think so. but um and so that was you know My husband and I were in the fortunate position that that was by choice, not by circumstances. And I have been public about that.
40:38.58
Kathleen Kingsbury
And I have had some young women recently, I would say in the last ah five years, come up to me afterwards and say thank you um because
40:46.07
Lorie Jones
Uh-huh.
40:48.01
Kathleen Kingsbury
I think it's a wonderful thing to be a mother. Most of my friends are mothers. I also have friends who have chosen not to be.
40:52.23
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
40:54.37
Kathleen Kingsbury
And I think one of the things that's really nice about where we're at as women supporting each other is we don't have to all make the same choice for it to be valid. ah And so you know just thinking about that, it's it's a hard job you moms have.
41:09.38
Kathleen Kingsbury
And um I'm glad I didn't sign up. I'm glad other people did. And I'll be that fun, cool aunt as long as I can.
41:15.45
Lorie Jones
yeah I love that. I do. I love that. And I agree with you. I think there's space for all different kinds of creation and and decisions and stuff like that. I think that there i I truly do think like but some some women have fur babies that are their whole lives.
41:33.20
Lorie Jones
you know And some some people have ideas and books and and you know, like the fun anti or something like that. Like there's there's we give back in so many different ways.
41:44.73
Lorie Jones
It doesn't just have to be one thing. It doesn't have to be this one way. It can be so many different ways. I love
41:52.88
Kathleen Kingsbury
Which is awesome that that's part of your message because that's really important for ah women of all ages, but certainly younger women to hear as well.
42:00.04
Lorie Jones
Yeah, I agree. there Their lives don't look like mine did and I love that for them. I think that's so exciting to watch. um Any advice for a young lady who's just starting down this path that you are so successful at to help her be successful like you?
42:19.82
Kathleen Kingsbury
I think one is to surround yourself with support. That doesn't mean that you're not capable of doing it. um But the reason that I've been successful for the last couple of decades is because I surrounded myself with support in terms of you know mentors and coaches, which we've already talked about, but um delegating and ah surrounding myself with people who are better at other things than I am, um such as like technology. I have a virtual assistant that does technology, and you know I can manage this podcast, but beyond that, I get in trouble.
42:57.77
Kathleen Kingsbury
And to also, I would say accept that you're not always going to know. you know Trust that you will figure it out, but you're not always gonna wanna know. And that is hard for some of us, but just know that just means you're human and you're working towards something. It's easy to say at this stage of my life because I look back and it all makes sense, um but it didn't make sense when I was going through it. um So stay true to yourself, I think is the bottom line.
43:28.67
Lorie Jones
Yeah, and living in that space where you're not sure what's coming next is is a little scary sometimes.
43:36.38
Kathleen Kingsbury
I call it the muck, and um any coach that's ever worked with me knows I'm not good in the muck. But I do know there's a purpose to the muck, and I do know you will eventually figure it out. And um pushing yourself and beating yourself up and you know trying to figure it out doesn't really get you there any quicker, it actually, if you lean into it a little bit.
43:59.07
Kathleen Kingsbury
um I'll probably be telling myself the same thing when I'm like 80, but it's I'm working on it.
44:02.49
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
44:03.81
Kathleen Kingsbury
And I think that's something that I'd like to share with the younger generation.
44:06.96
Lorie Jones
I love that. Thank you. Thank you so much, Kathleen, for showing up and sharing your experiences and sharing your journey. I've just really appreciated it. I've learned something I always do. And I'm so excited. And I'm excited about um the book suggestions you gave in your book. yeah It's coming out in February.
44:25.33
Kathleen Kingsbury
January 14th, 2025 is the official published date. And it's just Breaking Money Silence, the second edition. It will be available on my website, which is KBKwealthconnection.com. And the thing that's different about the second edition from the first is there's a bonus chapter, which is specifically for women. So people who are listening in today around how you identify, communicate, and unleash your true values so you can earn more.
44:54.72
Lorie Jones
Oh, I love that.
44:54.83
Kathleen Kingsbury
ah Because I want to help women be able to charge with their worth, and I know sometimes that isn't always so easy.
45:01.09
Lorie Jones
Yeah, sometimes it's a little hard. So if we have a listener that wants to get in touch with you, ask questions, take advantage, how do they do that?
45:08.11
Kathleen Kingsbury
Sure. So the best thing to do is to go to my website. Again, it's KBK. Those are my initials, Kathleen Burns-Ganksbury. KBKwealthconnection.com. You can also find me on LinkedIn.
45:21.00
Kathleen Kingsbury
I know it's a long name, Kathleen Burns Kingsbury on LinkedIn. um And what I'm gonna offer to anybody who's interested in the book is I will get you for the show notes, a special link that will get you 10% off um the Breaking Money Silence book. ah So if people do wanna take advantage of that resource, they can.
45:40.49
Kathleen Kingsbury
And for those that may not want to invest yet, I'm going to also offer a handout that's going to help you prepare for a money conversation because I think preparation is something ah that is key. So hopefully out of one of those ah resources, it can help and feel free to reach out. I love having conversations and talking to women about breaking money silence.
46:03.69
Lorie Jones
I love it. Thank you so, so much. I appreciate it, Kathleen.
46:06.86
Kathleen Kingsbury
Oh, thank you.