Today, Lorie Jones is thrilled to sit down with Dana Kirchmar, the audacious force who launched a shuttle into space at 21 and now leads the Elevate Initiative.
Dana’s journey from classified satellite work at Lockheed Martin to pioneering roles in the aviation industry with companies like Honeywell and Cessna is nothing short of electrifying. She’ll share her compelling insights on authenticity, the power of small wins, and the importance of mentoring women in STEM.
This episode promises to be a treasure trove of inspiration and actionable advice for every professional woman to navigate and excel in challenging career landscapes. Don’t miss it!
Show Highlights:
- Follow an audacious female’s career in aviation and aerospace engineering. [00:04:23]
- Can we beat these statistics of women in aviation and aerospace? [00:13:32]
- Discover STEM/aviation and aerospace study opportunities for girls. [00:16:45]
- The importance of creating change beyond DEI programs. [00:23:44]
- Why choosing career over family needs ongoing reflection. [00:26:38]
- The power of unwavering authenticity for true growth. [00:31:15]
- How to unleash true daily joy to cure impostor syndrome. [00:36:33]
- What are the stories behind the stories of women in male-dominated fields? [00:38:29]
- Insights on resilience and finding opportunities in setbacks. [00:42:19]
- Unlock top career advice for young professional women. [00:45:32]
To contact Dana Kirchmar, email her at dana@danakirchmar.com.
If you enjoyed this episode, please go to Apple Podcasts and leave a review! For more information about Lorie Jones, go to http://fearless-females.com/.
00:01.36
loriejones7
Good morning and thanks for joining us on Fearless Females again. I'm excited about our guest today, Dana Kirchmer. She's the founder and CEO of the Elevate Initiative. And I had a chance to just chat with Dana a couple days ago and I was so excited to hear her story. I could not wait to get her on the program. So thank you so much for joining us and doing this for us. I appreciate it.
00:25.27
Dana Kirchmar
Well, thank you so much for the invitation. I'm looking forward to talking to you.
00:29.02
loriejones7
Oh, well, I'm looking forward to hearing your story. So I always start with the same question and it's because I'm a reader. I love reading. Tell me about your favorite book.
00:41.61
Dana Kirchmar
So my favorite book is actually a book that I'm reading right now and I have to look at it so I can tell you the whole title. Um, and it's an older book, um, but it's called quiet, the power of introverts in a world that can't stop talking. And it's by Susan Cain and you. Oh my gosh. it It, so I consider myself an introvert. Um, and there's a whole lot of information about there in there about.
01:10.42
Dana Kirchmar
why introverts should should be in charge of companies, why introverts should be leaders. And and it just it's something that I should have read years ago, um but but picked it up last week as a matter of fact.
01:22.42
loriejones7
I love it. That's on my list.
01:24.96
Dana Kirchmar
And it just really speaks to me. So I cannot recommend it highly enough, especially for introverts.
01:29.96
loriejones7
I will.
01:31.04
Dana Kirchmar
Well, and actually, I think there's something in it for extroverts as well. i mean they' there i mean but we're were either one or the other or a combination of the two. So there there are lots of lessons to be learned.
01:42.46
loriejones7
Yeah, I've been I was listening to something I don't remember what the other day and it was talking about introverts extroverts and ambiverts apparently they they walk the line and I've always considered myself a bit of an introvert to I'm so happy with my spreadsheets and my financial predictions and people are a little scary sometimes that they're always nice.
02:00.33
Dana Kirchmar
but fit Right.
02:04.37
loriejones7
so
02:04.95
Dana Kirchmar
Absolutely, absolutely.
02:08.13
loriejones7
So I love it. I'll move that top but closer to the top of my list because I've been meaning to get to that one. So that's a great recommendation. So tell me a little bit about your journey, Dana. are Talk about how you got where you're at today and and kind of how you got started. And and just tell me a little bit about who you are.
02:26.96
Dana Kirchmar
So, um i'm I'm actually a Colorado native, there aren't that many of us, but I grew up in Arvada, Colorado. um I went to college at Colorado State University, and I studied electrical engineering. um I had absolutely no idea what an electrical engineer did, ah even kind of when I graduated. I mean, I knew what I had learned, but I but i didn't know what I was going to do with it. And and it was 1997, and so it
02:58.45
Dana Kirchmar
It was not a good year for engineers to find jobs. And so I kind of fell back on my high school college summer job of being a bank teller until I finally got a job at Martin Marietta at the time, which is now Lockheed Martin. And I was assigned to work on a classified satellite. So that entailed all kinds of interesting stories around getting a security clearance and training and all kinds of of interesting things. But um at that point in time, I was 23 years old. I was completely audacious. I was afraid of nothing. And our spacecraft was getting ready to go to ah Cape Kennedy, um actually to to the Canaveral space station because it was a military launch.
03:51.80
Dana Kirchmar
Um, and I was bound and determined, even though I had been at the company for less than a year, I was bound and determined that I was going to be on that team. So I went out of my way to volunteer for things. I would put on a full bunny suit and go out into the hot and the clean room in the high bay and work on the ah spacecraft and not care what I looked like and what my hair looked like when I came out, which that's a big deal for.
04:16.43
Dana Kirchmar
an 80s girl with big hair. So I pretty much made myself indispensable and and I was chosen to to go work on the launch. So that kind of culminated in being in payload mission control for the first classified space shuttle launch. And I was in there to say go or no go for my particular system.
04:39.11
Dana Kirchmar
so It's like you see in the movies, that stuff really does happen. They really do have countdowns like that. And and that was really a highlight. and And I thought, oh my gosh, I'm 24 years old now.
04:50.98
Dana Kirchmar
And and this is the ah what comes next. I had no idea what what would come next.
04:55.11
loriejones7
Yeah, how do you top that, right?
04:56.99
Dana Kirchmar
ah Exactly at that age. Well, um they paid for my clearance, which had cost a lot of money and um they didn't want me to move around. and And I'm one of those people that ah that are easily bored. If I worked for Boeing, I couldn't just be the window shade girl. I you know i would i would have to do more things. And and because they had paid for for such an expensive clearance, they weren't wouldn't let me move around within the company. So I ultimately ended up ah quitting and um going to work for Honeywell.
05:32.42
Dana Kirchmar
in Phoenix. So basically I went from aerospace, 10 years in aerospace, to being an entry level engineer again um at ah at an aviation company. and And to this day, I don't really know why I was hired, except that I have really good interview skills.
05:48.78
Dana Kirchmar
I i feel like I have um exemplary people skills for being an introvert, but but ah for for being an engineer as well.
05:54.45
loriejones7
Yeah. i
05:57.05
Dana Kirchmar
And so the the role that I was hired into was an applications engineer for Cessna Citation avionics. And um it within three years, it was absolutely a perfect fit for me. Within three years, I went from being the entry-level engineer to being the technical manager for all of the avionics for the Cessna Citation business jets. And so that included primary flight displays,
06:22.31
Dana Kirchmar
um but I was actually an autopilot specialist. So most of the people on my team got sick doing flight testing and I didn't get sick. So I was doing all of the flight testing for seven programs at the same time.
06:35.91
Dana Kirchmar
um and as As part of that, um I am one of the designers of the Citation X autopilot, which at that point in time,
06:35.99
loriejones7
ah wow that would make me sick
06:49.83
Dana Kirchmar
was the fastest um business jet in the world. um it It cruised at 0.92 Mach. It also flew to 51,000 feet. So as part of my flight testing, I got to fly that high where the sky is actually a different color and and you can start to see the curvature of the earth.
07:02.12
loriejones7
Oh wow, that would make me sick.
07:08.17
Dana Kirchmar
um but We were working on an autopilot over speed protection um where the nose of the plane is supposed to automatically come up so it never goes over the 0.92 Mach.
07:19.97
Dana Kirchmar
um And so I was standing in the cockpit between the two pilots and we were watching I was watching the gauges and we were going downtown and it got to 9 3 9 4 9 5 at 0.97 The pilot said your control is not working and he pulled the the airplane back But but I so I bragged that that I've flown to 0.97 Mach standing up in the cockpit of a of a business jet So that's kind of a funny story anyway um so So I stayed at Honeywell for about eight years.
07:53.08
Dana Kirchmar
um As much as I loved my job, because I did, I adored it. Phoenix was not my home and I and i wanted to be back here.
07:59.09
loriejones7
Oh my goodness. i Oh yeah, i've been I've lived in Phoenix after Denver and Phoenix is not my happy place too.
08:03.20
Dana Kirchmar
Yeah.
08:05.79
loriejones7
I understand that.
08:06.77
Dana Kirchmar
No, definitely not. And so I was looking about once a month on monster dot.com, which was the way to find a job then. And there was a job that I saw that was for an avionics and electrical engineering manager for a startup aircraft company in Denver. And I thought, Oh, oh that sounds interesting. So I sent my resume in.
08:27.02
Dana Kirchmar
I heard back from the hiring manager in less than 10 minutes and was getting ready to get on a plane at the end of the week to to come out for the interview. and and I thought startup, you know I had only worked for those two really big companies. I wasn't sure about startup. I thought you know this is a chance for me to go home and see my parents on somebody else's dime and the interview experience will be good. and And so I didn't really think that it was a job that I was going to take. And I will tell you that within 30 minutes of meeting the people, um I knew it it was a job that I couldn't turn down. So it was a panel interview, which I had never been part of. So I was sitting across the table from eight other people just getting questions. But but it didn't feel like
09:21.82
Dana Kirchmar
a grilling, it felt like a conversation.
09:23.01
loriejones7
ah
09:24.25
Dana Kirchmar
And and I found out after the fact that that they all kind of felt the same way about me. they They said, well, they knew after about five minutes, they just wanted to go out and have beer and pizza. So so oh so it it that was a really good opportunity.
09:34.06
loriejones7
Oh, that's great!
09:38.05
Dana Kirchmar
And and I accepted that job and moved back to Denver. And I was actually the 17th employee of that company. And um we designed and built that that aircraft, flew it.
09:49.80
Dana Kirchmar
It flew several times. And then the the economic crash of 2007 happened and and we ran out of money. So that was my my startup, my first startup that went out of business.
10:01.54
Dana Kirchmar
So from there I went to work for a company called Gogo at the time it was called Airsell.
10:02.53
loriejones7
and
10:12.03
Dana Kirchmar
And now it's Gogo Business Aviation and they provide internet on airplanes. So if you've ever flown on American or United and you've used their internet, that's that's what I did.
10:22.55
Dana Kirchmar
Only I did it for business jets.
10:23.76
loriejones7
Mm hmm.
10:25.08
Dana Kirchmar
Um, I stayed there for about 10 years. I went to work for another startup company, um, as a, uh, uh, there's not much to say about it. It it was a one year stint and we raised some money, but we didn't raise enough money to keep it going.
10:40.39
Dana Kirchmar
Um, so then I ended up working for, um, smart sky networks, which is a competitor to, um, uh, go-go also providing internet service on airplanes.
10:48.87
loriejones7
yeah
10:51.47
Dana Kirchmar
So. Those are kind of the things that I did, but really who I am is so much bigger than that. Because throughout those 37 years of being in aviation and aerospace, first of all, I feel like I'm kind of a unicorn because I've been in in those businesses for so long.
11:08.19
loriejones7
Mhm. Mhm. yeah
11:12.06
Dana Kirchmar
Women generally don't stay. And, you know, I've experienced pretty much the the whole scale of what I could have have experienced there. And so now my mission is to exponentially increase the number of women in aviation and aerospace and to change the face of aviation and aerospace and to make it look more feminine.
11:33.42
Dana Kirchmar
So that is how I'm spending my time in.
11:33.89
loriejones7
Yeah.
11:36.50
Dana Kirchmar
um I've got a business that I started up several years ago that's kind of rolling into full gear now, coaching both the young women and and giving them tips and trips tricks from my career.
11:51.44
Dana Kirchmar
um as well as working with the sea level managers um to help them determine what they need to do to make their culture female friendly in order to help them retain and attract female talent.
12:06.39
loriejones7
Yeah, well, now you now you know, Dana, why I was so excited to have you on the program.
12:07.74
Dana Kirchmar
ah
12:11.78
loriejones7
It's like our our interests align completely on that. um I have been you know one of the very few women in the room, not as bad as aviation. yeah ah You were telling me some statistics like, tell me the statistics again, 7%.
12:26.33
Dana Kirchmar
So 3% of the C-suite are women and only 7% of the population in in aviation and aerospace are women.
12:29.79
loriejones7
Yeah.
12:36.72
Dana Kirchmar
Yeah, it's it's unbelievable.
12:37.06
loriejones7
Yeah, it is. It's just and especially in 2024. Like, yeah, it it we could do better, right? I love that you're you're working on that and trying to do better.
12:49.64
loriejones7
So did you ever top your 24 year old experience of in the whole career so far? There's still time.
12:59.38
Dana Kirchmar
Absolutely.
12:59.64
loriejones7
But
13:00.99
Dana Kirchmar
you know i I've had so many once in a lifetime experiences. I don't know that I ever topped that one just because of everything that was wrapped up in it.
13:13.57
Dana Kirchmar
you know I had to have a cover story.
13:14.16
loriejones7
Yeah.
13:17.29
Dana Kirchmar
um i I couldn't show my identification to pick up a rental car. At the rental car place, they gave me a map. to a bungalow on the beach where the security people would go through my um my suitcase to make sure that I didn't have anything that that made it look like I was from from from Colorado. um ah We used retina scans to to get into facilities that were we were going to, which I mean, that's not really even mainstream today, and and that was 30 years ago. um ah I had the run
13:54.17
Dana Kirchmar
of the launch pad. so So frequently I worked the graveyard shift and and so I would be out there at 11 or 12 o'clock at night and and the big spotlights were shining on the on the shuttle from below.
14:09.79
Dana Kirchmar
And I could go anywhere I wanted. And so I would go and stand at the bottom of of the space shuttle rockets and just look up at it.
14:18.15
loriejones7
Oh.
14:18.59
Dana Kirchmar
And then there's a catwalk up at the very top of it um that you can get almost to the top of it. And so I would climb the catwalk. I think it was like 197 or or that it's in feet, what level you're at.
14:32.80
Dana Kirchmar
So I think it was 196 or 197.
14:33.26
loriejones7
yeah
14:35.16
Dana Kirchmar
And I would go up there and just look down and and I would think, I would think, oh my gosh, I am getting paid to do this. This is like completely crazy. so as As much as I've gotten to do a lot of really cool things in in my career, I mean, I've flight tested on so many jets. I've been on so many business jets. I can't even name them all, which at which is really fun as as well. but the But the whole experience and also being, you know, 24 years old and and being kind of fearless and and I call myself audacious and and I have that.
15:15.83
Dana Kirchmar
up above my desk now, the word audacious, because I felt feel like the longer I went through my career, the more safe I got and the less audacious I was. And and it's a reminder to me to go back to being that 24-year-old girl who didn't know better than to say, hey, call on me.
15:26.63
loriejones7
oh yeah.
15:35.81
Dana Kirchmar
I want to go to the Cape. ah you know
15:37.73
loriejones7
Yeah. Yeah, I love it. Oh, that's so exciting. Tell me a little bit about an investment that you made in yourself that you're so glad that you made. Like um you look back on your life and you're like, if I hadn't had done that, I would just not be where I am today.
15:55.97
Dana Kirchmar
So I think there are two that that I would talk about. The the first one um is was hiring a um career coach. So that was definitely a financial investment for me. I wish that I would have done it much earlier in my career. um I have prided myself on being independent and not having to ask for help.
16:21.52
Dana Kirchmar
And and I think in ah in a lot of ways, um that would um that was it it hurt me to to not be open to to having some some sort of coaching.
16:31.25
loriejones7
here
16:36.35
Dana Kirchmar
um the The biggest investment that I have made is not a financial investment. It's a time investment. and so um In addition to to my corporate job and and what I'm trying to pull together, I'm on the board of the Wings Over the Rockies Air and Space Museum, um which is all about educating the public about aviation past and present.
16:53.74
loriejones7
Mm-hmm.
17:01.84
Dana Kirchmar
um it's it's Its mission is is education, and that's so so near and dear to my heart. um As part of that, I'm on the Captain Jeppesen Foundation as well.
17:10.18
loriejones7
Yeah.
17:14.67
Dana Kirchmar
and And what we do is we ah provide full flight scholarships to students between the ages of 15 and 19. So this is the fourth year that we've done it, and it's gotten bigger and bigger every year. This year we had 131 applicants.
17:35.02
Dana Kirchmar
we
17:35.37
loriejones7
wow
17:36.66
Dana Kirchmar
interviewed 54 in person. Those are some long weekends interviewing these kids.
17:41.77
loriejones7
That's a lot.
17:43.11
Dana Kirchmar
They were amazing. um And we were able to award 28, $14,000 scholarships.
17:50.40
loriejones7
Wow.
17:51.97
Dana Kirchmar
So that, I love doing that. And and then the the last thing is is really, um I'm ah the secretary of the school board for Colorado Skies Academy, which is a
17:55.36
loriejones7
Yeah.
18:05.19
Dana Kirchmar
middle school um that's actually dedicated, it's a STEM middle school dedicated to aviation and aerospace and it's located on the airport at Centennial Airport here.
18:11.75
loriejones7
Oh, huh.
18:15.47
Dana Kirchmar
And so I'm really involved with filling the pipeline with young women and in all of the different areas and kind of in a position to hold their hand as they make their their journey from just learning about education aviation as as a young girl all the way to to helping to to mentor them once they get their first job.
18:37.44
Dana Kirchmar
And that that is the investment of my time. that That is the best investment that I've ever made, all of that.
18:41.87
loriejones7
Yeah.
18:45.51
loriejones7
Yeah. i I hear you.
18:46.70
Dana Kirchmar
Yeah.
18:47.59
loriejones7
i I can hear the passion as you talk about aviation and especially women in aviation. And it just, it strikes me so close to home because I have that same passion for women in finance.
18:58.12
loriejones7
I'm like, you know, they should, developing that young talent and and helping them to grow. um I always say i'm ah I'm kind of a mom by profession because I, you know, you grow that the young talent and watch them become.
19:09.31
Dana Kirchmar
yeah
19:14.75
loriejones7
And that gives you such joy to to see them be successful and and what a difference you're making in their life too, you know.
19:15.00
Dana Kirchmar
Yeah.
19:23.68
Dana Kirchmar
and And it's making such a big difference in my life. I mean, that's my life is is so much richer now than it was but but before. I mean, honestly, it's it's I love to to give them a lift up, um but I get as much from it as they do. Absolutely no doubt.
19:42.39
loriejones7
and that And that's a good secret. um you know that Something that's kind of a secret sort of plus or bonus is that, is that yeah, like um you know you you do feel that sense of accomplishment as they accomplish, as they succeed. and um And I find that many of my fearless females that have been on the show have that same sort of you know that want and desire for to help empower women in all different industries. they don't They don't have as many, ah ninety what you've got 93% to go in your industry.
20:17.64
Dana Kirchmar
Yeah, right, right, right. Got a ways to go.
20:19.86
loriejones7
it Yeah, you've got a little bit further to go than a lot of them, but but i do I love that sense of of watching the future because they're so interesting and they teach you so much and it's so much fun.
20:33.40
Dana Kirchmar
They do. Well, and also, I've gotten so much out of this industry myself that I want to give back to it now. I want to, you know, this is, this is something that that I love.
20:46.00
Dana Kirchmar
I mean, I am truly passionate about about aviation. I think it attracts really special people. I think it they're wonderful jobs.
20:52.30
loriejones7
and
20:56.60
Dana Kirchmar
um They're high paying jobs. I mean, there there are just a lot of reasons to to keep young ladies moving in this direction.
21:05.18
loriejones7
Yeah, I love that. Tell me, Dana, what is the worst advice someone gave you on your journey here? And did you take the advice or did you not take the advice?
21:17.31
Dana Kirchmar
Um, I have thought about this question a lot and, um, I don't know that I've ever gotten bad advice. I mean, I've, I've, um, I've had a lot of, of advocates and I've had a lot of mentors. Um, I will tell you that, that this probably doesn't fall under the, the,
21:45.32
Dana Kirchmar
term of advice, but but it was early it was early in my career and I was looking for for a mentor and there was a woman who was in software development at the company that I worked for and I asked her, would you mentor me please? And she looked me square in the face and she said, I didn't have any help to get where I got to. Why should I help you?
22:13.35
Dana Kirchmar
and turned around and walked away. and And obviously that was not advice. But it kind of set the the tone for me. It kind of, I mean, that probably is where I realized that that was not what I wanted to be. I wanted to help lift other other women. i I think because the industry is is the way that it is,
22:43.07
Dana Kirchmar
And there are so few female sea level spots that that we we as women act like the sea level spots fit into a pie.
22:53.61
Dana Kirchmar
and in And if I get my piece of the pie, my spot, then there are less sea level spots for for other other women.
23:02.29
loriejones7
Yeah.
23:02.33
Dana Kirchmar
And and I feel like sometimes that's how we treat each other. um um So I didn't really answer your question. I think it was, I think it was a lesson learned about what I wouldn't ever do.
23:15.21
loriejones7
Yeah, yeah, I love that. And, and essentially what you're trying to do is make a bigger pie, right?
23:20.89
Dana Kirchmar
Right, right, right.
23:22.11
loriejones7
So that there are more seats at the table for women to have.
23:25.07
Dana Kirchmar
o
23:25.98
loriejones7
And I have found that that um that our generation, you know those that are are breaking glass ceilings and moving into these industries that are traditionally male dominated, especially you know our age, are are looking to help because maybe
23:41.80
Dana Kirchmar
Yeah.
23:46.37
loriejones7
Maybe the the generation before us was really concentrating on breaking the glass ceiling and didn't have enough capacity to help out.
23:52.16
Dana Kirchmar
Absolutely.
23:55.19
Dana Kirchmar
Absolutely. and And even more than growing the pie is like building more pies. I mean, giving making making more opportunities.
24:02.09
loriejones7
Oh, yeah.
24:04.25
Dana Kirchmar
i i think that's I think that's kind of the big thing. I don't believe that um the men are intentionally keeping the women from from rising or or from becoming leaders.
24:16.66
loriejones7
Yeah.
24:18.32
Dana Kirchmar
I think they just don't think about it. I mean, I think you know i think there's some thinking that um that that the DEI program will take care of that. And and that's just not the case. if if you don't see If you don't see a career path for yourself, if you don't see a woman doing a role that you want to do, then it kind of tams you down and makes you makes you think, why should I why should i bother? and And I think that's a lot of why so many women leave aviation and aerospace is because
24:55.54
Dana Kirchmar
There just aren't that many female role models.
24:58.05
loriejones7
role models.
24:59.08
Dana Kirchmar
So we we need to be the role models that we didn't have.
24:59.12
loriejones7
Yeah.
25:02.06
loriejones7
Yeah, yeah, I agree 100%. And, and I agree with you as well. You know, I say all the time, I'm like, there, there are husbands and fathers and uncles and brothers and They all want those women in their life to be successful and to be able to reach the stars, to do anything they wanna do.
25:15.60
Dana Kirchmar
Right.
25:20.49
Dana Kirchmar
Yep.
25:20.48
loriejones7
They just sometimes need some help. Like, how do you we encourage that?
25:23.23
Dana Kirchmar
Absolutely.
25:26.61
loriejones7
I've talked to just a bunch of financial advisors because we're about 20% women in the financial advising space. And I've talked to a bunch of male financial advisors and they're like, we had to hire a woman, show us one, give us one.
25:41.01
loriejones7
yeah
25:41.19
Dana Kirchmar
Yeah. Right. Right. Right. It's that's, that's the whole thing about, about building the pipeline and, and, and having, having women that young women, that that's what they want to do. And then continuing to nurture them along the whole path, not letting them, not letting them go.
26:02.29
loriejones7
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, encouraging and supporting and growing and mentoring and yes, um giving them, um I was reading a book Outliers and it talks about how
26:06.34
Dana Kirchmar
Right.
26:13.84
loriejones7
Um, some of the biggest prediction of a success, they've got like successful little enclaves in engineering or medicine or something like that. And one of the, um, the biggest predictors of being successful is being able to see neighbors and mentors and people that look like you in those roles.
26:33.49
Dana Kirchmar
Right? Right?
26:34.98
loriejones7
And then that gives you the sense as a, as a young child that, Hey, I could do that too. I could be that person.
26:40.63
Dana Kirchmar
Yeah.
26:41.98
loriejones7
So yeah.
26:42.55
Dana Kirchmar
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
26:44.57
loriejones7
What about regrets? And i'm I guess I'm not going to say regrets, but is there a situation that you can kind of look back on and you're like, Oh my goodness, knowing what I know now, I definitely would have done that differently.
26:56.45
loriejones7
Like you you go through it again, knowing the same things.
26:58.77
Dana Kirchmar
Yeah.
26:58.85
loriejones7
You're probably going to do the same thing, but, but knowing what you know now, is there a situation that you would go back and do over?
27:04.98
Dana Kirchmar
Absolutely. So I was working so hard. I was so invested in my career and I was working so hard to be seen as um being as good as the the men that that I was working with.
27:23.75
Dana Kirchmar
I felt like i I had to do more. It's not necessarily that more was being asked of me, but it was something that I had put on myself that that you know i need to I need to show that that I can do more, I can do better.
27:37.52
Dana Kirchmar
I was so focused on that, Lori, that I didn't stop and say, hey, I didn't get married. Hey, I didn't have kids.
27:47.81
loriejones7
Oh wait!
27:49.14
Dana Kirchmar
Exactly. Wait. Until it was too late. and and And really, I don't know that I, I mean, I probably would not have thought about that at all had I not found myself unemployed at one point in time. And, and I had a coach at the time who, who very intelligently asked me, what do you do for fun? What, what do you, how do you spend your time when you're not working?
28:18.32
Dana Kirchmar
And I could not answer her. I mean, I cried my eyes out.
28:20.38
loriejones7
Oh.
28:21.48
Dana Kirchmar
I couldn't answer her. And and then and then I'm thinking, okay, now I'm too old to have kids. Now, you know, I can certainly get married. I have been with my partner for 27 years. So it's not like I didn't, I guess I didn't have a ceremony, but but um but I didn't have kids, which which is a big regret.
28:40.10
Dana Kirchmar
and And now I'm very intentional and I'm very intentional in my coaching about this as well. I'm very intentional that at a quarter, at least ah once a quarter, I go back and I take a look at what my goals are for for the rest of this year, for three years, for five years, and look at where I am.
29:02.19
Dana Kirchmar
look at that f whether those goals are still my goals and redo my plan for for the next quarter to make sure that I stay in line with what I want. and and I think that if I had done that earlier in my career, I certainly would have wanted to have children. I would have wanted to raise a family, but but by the time it crossed my mind, it it was too late because I was so focused on on my career.
29:30.78
Dana Kirchmar
And so I think um um we we all evolve.
29:31.09
loriejones7
Mm hmm.
29:38.63
Dana Kirchmar
But if we don't take it the time, the intentional time to to look at where we are, we don't know if we need to evolve.
29:49.92
Dana Kirchmar
we don't you know we We may have evolved in a different direction and we may may need to course correct or or there's something else we would meet we may want to do. So I think I was not very introspective about my life.
30:01.88
loriejones7
Mm-hmm.
30:03.71
Dana Kirchmar
like my If you would have asked me who I was, I would say, I'm an electrical engineer or I'm a rocket scientist. or i mean and And that's not who I am.
30:13.88
loriejones7
Mm-hmm.
30:14.72
Dana Kirchmar
That's what I do. But that was really the point that I had gotten to. And and that one thing was directing all of my decisions. I would make every decision that I made had to do with how is this going to support my career.
30:28.79
Dana Kirchmar
And and I lost out on on a lot of things that I would have liked to have had.
30:29.04
loriejones7
Mm hmm.
30:33.23
loriejones7
Oh, that's so interesting that you say that I, I just ran into a situation my youngest um graduated from high school and I was, um you know, I'm, I'm very goal driven and goal oriented and, and probably fit that analytical engineering mindset a little better than the, you know,
30:50.42
Dana Kirchmar
Yeah.
30:53.58
loriejones7
empathetic sort of mindset.
30:54.08
Dana Kirchmar
Yeah.
30:55.90
loriejones7
And so i was i was she wanted to um go swimming with the sharks, go snorkeling. And I was running into an issue where I only had one person in the office that day.
31:06.36
loriejones7
I was working remotely and I only had one person in the office. And I was trying to decide, like, do I go swimming with the sharks with my daughter or do I stay and and help out at the office in case there's an emergency?
31:17.90
loriejones7
And I really did have to look at my my life and my goals and who I wanted to be and say, you know what? I am never, and none of my clients will ever remember if I was in the office for two hours that day, but I will always remember swimming with the sharks with my daughter.
31:33.86
Dana Kirchmar
Absolutely.
31:34.20
loriejones7
i hate And so I think that I did taking stock of your life and finding out if you're on track or off track is so, so important.
31:34.50
Dana Kirchmar
Absolutely. Yeah, yeah.
31:44.81
Dana Kirchmar
It absolutely is.
31:49.15
loriejones7
I love that you mentioned that. Thank you. Dana, is one thing, if you could go back and talk to your 20-year-old self or early on in this journey, 23, 24, 25, I really am not ok whatever age you want to choose, but what would you tell her?
32:05.78
Dana Kirchmar
Yeah.
32:09.00
Dana Kirchmar
I would tell her, first of all, stay audacious. Don't let anything take away your self-confidence and your belief in yourself. And along with that goes, do not shape shift. Do not become something that you think somebody else wants you to be in order to fit their mold. Be b authentic, not everybody's going to love you, but but but you're going to love yourself. And and so don't shapeshift. do Do not change your life to be someone who you authentically are not.
32:52.22
loriejones7
Oh, that's so valuable, I think. um I know that and you're expected to, I'm sure you found this in your career as well. In my career, you're kind of expected to look and act and do things a certain way because that's the way they've always been done.
33:06.48
Dana Kirchmar
No.
33:08.66
loriejones7
and It is traditionally male-dominated, so mostly it's their way.
33:09.28
Dana Kirchmar
Yep.
33:12.76
loriejones7
so i you know The idea of of being a mom or our maybe dressing a little more vibrantly or something like that, but it doesn't come into my world and it's not authentically me.
33:21.46
Dana Kirchmar
Yeah. Right. Right.
33:25.92
loriejones7
And so I have to fight that a lot of times. Did you find that?
33:28.47
Dana Kirchmar
Yeah. I did. I did. Absolutely. And and one of one of the things that that came out of that temper our TDY trip that I was on to the Cape. I was the only woman with with a bunch of men and we were there for first six months. We came home for a weekend every um three weeks or so, but I was in a position where I was was not able to talk to my family members. They couldn't even know where I was. So the only people that I had
34:03.66
Dana Kirchmar
that I could have conversations with were the people that I worked with and they were all men. And so I shape shifted and became one of the guys so that I would have people to go have dinner with, so that I would have people to do things with on the weekend. So that, I mean, I really, I i acted as if I was okay with things that I was not okay with,
34:29.22
Dana Kirchmar
because I didn't want to be shunned, for lack of a better word, shunned from the group, because then who would I have? I mean, it was it it set up a situation where where I was either going to conform or I was going to be alone. And and and that's a that's a some other things came out of that that weren't so good either. But that that's kind of where my whole shape-shifting message comes from. i mean i there lots of times looking back now where, where I think, well, you know, I didn't need to go have drinks with the guys after work. I would be plenty happy sitting on, on my balcony overlooking the beach with a book. And, and that's, that was who I authentically was, you know?
35:13.63
loriejones7
Mm hmm. That makes sense. And so you learned through that journey that you needed to stay authentic to who you were and sit on the beach with the book rather than making yourself into someone you weren't in order to fit in.
35:25.83
Dana Kirchmar
Exactly.
35:28.65
Dana Kirchmar
Right, yep, exactly.
35:31.60
loriejones7
And providing probably a space that other women might feel more comfortable being who they are.
35:39.36
Dana Kirchmar
Absolutely, yep.
35:42.60
loriejones7
What scared you the most when you started this career? And does it still scare you?
35:49.00
Dana Kirchmar
um
35:54.98
Dana Kirchmar
I think what scared me was, eight not knowing if I had the exact skill set that I that i needed. I have dealt, including now, um I have dealt my entire career with with imposter syndrome and and um I think I didn't have a good idea when I was leaving college that that it would be okay. You're going into a job and they're going to teach you what you need to learn. what what you and and And when I started hiring people, you know i it didn't matter to me what kind of an, and if I was looking for an engineering role, it didn't matter to me whether they were an electrical or mechanical or whatever. It was because they got the background that you get in an engineering degree.
36:41.25
Dana Kirchmar
so So I think what scared me was not knowing exactly what what I needed to do from day one and being found out as anp as an imposter.
36:41.65
loriejones7
Uh
36:52.59
Dana Kirchmar
And I still kind of, you know, I still kind of have that um every now and then.
36:57.23
loriejones7
-huh.
36:58.18
Dana Kirchmar
It's still kind of, even 37 years into my career, um i I'm thinking, do I do i have, Well, now, now I think it has to do with technology.
37:10.45
Dana Kirchmar
I mean, I'm, I'm, you know, technology moves so quickly and, and, um, um, am I going to be able to learn this new technology fast enough to keep up with, with, with these young folks?
37:14.08
loriejones7
Yeah.
37:21.02
Dana Kirchmar
And, um, so that's, I think a lot, it goes to imposter syndrome and, and being scared that I have the right skillset to actually do the job well.
37:21.71
loriejones7
Yeah.
37:33.99
loriejones7
I had to sit down with ah a group that I joined just recently and I was having a problem and they had to give me a talk or like Lori. You've been doing the job for like two years.
37:45.65
loriejones7
Like you you you're doing it. You don't have to worry that you're not good at it. You're doing it.
37:49.99
Dana Kirchmar
Yeah, right, right.
37:50.53
loriejones7
yeah And so I think that, and I know that with my um young women that are kind of coming up in finance, that they they struggle with that too.
37:53.50
Dana Kirchmar
Right.
38:00.43
loriejones7
What if I don't know enough? What if I'm not good enough? How come?
38:03.16
Dana Kirchmar
Yeah.
38:03.75
loriejones7
you know and I guess other than just helping support, telling them them nice things about themselves and giving them you know encouragement, like is there any way that you've, you is there a magic potion that you figured out to combat that imposter syndrome?
38:11.73
Dana Kirchmar
Yeah.
38:21.63
Dana Kirchmar
um I am really big on celebrating successes. um And I'm not talking about big successes. I'm talking about the smallest thing that I accomplish in a day.
38:36.99
Dana Kirchmar
I i celebrate.
38:37.11
loriejones7
Mm-hmm.
38:38.67
Dana Kirchmar
if If there is one thing on my list of things that I want to get done today. And I finished that one thing. And I go have a piece of chocolate. I go for a walk around the block. I like play my favorite song.
38:50.81
Dana Kirchmar
I am huge. I don't think we we remember to celebrate ourselves enough.
39:00.15
loriejones7
Hmm.
39:00.26
Dana Kirchmar
So so think about when ah when you have a baby. and a baby rolls over for the first time. It's like oh it's like a big party.
39:10.21
loriejones7
Yeah.
39:11.05
Dana Kirchmar
oh the baby you know And the same thing when the baby takes the first steps.
39:12.42
loriejones7
yeah
39:14.30
Dana Kirchmar
Whoa, you took your first steps. We need to celebrate ourselves like that. We need to find times like that for ourselves where we celebrate ourselves and get crazy, ridiculously happy about finishing something and a little thing, just a little thing. It doesn't have to be the end of a big project. It could just be the end of a day.
39:38.05
loriejones7
I love that. I actually, I adore that. We just started something here called the signing party. So when they, when they sign their paperwork to come on, we throw like a confetti party.
39:48.72
Dana Kirchmar
Nice. Nice. That's awesome. It's the same idea.
39:51.48
loriejones7
but Yeah.
39:52.20
Dana Kirchmar
Yeah.
39:53.25
loriejones7
Yeah. It's the same thing. It's like, and, and it is important if you look back and say, you know what? I have come so far. I'm doing so well. I love that you brought that up, Dana. Thank you so much.
40:03.47
Dana Kirchmar
Yeah, sure.
40:03.98
loriejones7
I, I think that's so important too. And maybe to your horn a little bit, you know hey, guess what?
40:11.33
Dana Kirchmar
Absolutely.
40:11.79
loriejones7
I got done today.
40:13.59
Dana Kirchmar
Absolutely. Absolutely.
40:17.34
loriejones7
So what about, I know the answer to this question is probably yes, but did you face any unique challenges because you were a woman?
40:25.11
Dana Kirchmar
Oh, yes. I have probably experienced pretty much everything you could experience as as a woman in a male-dominated industry.
40:37.94
Dana Kirchmar
i I'm actually writing um a memoir right now.
40:42.75
loriejones7
oh
40:43.71
Dana Kirchmar
And because i've I've told my stories about the crazy stuff that happened when I was working at the Cape and flying to 51,000 feet, people were always saying, Dana, you need to write a book.
40:55.54
Dana Kirchmar
And, and I started to write it from a perspective of, look at how awesome it is to be a woman in STEM and, and STEAM.
41:05.17
loriejones7
Yeah.
41:05.94
Dana Kirchmar
And, and, and so that's how I initially started writing it. As I, as I got further into it, I realized that I couldn't tell those stories completely accurately.
41:21.69
Dana Kirchmar
if I wasn't telling the rest of the story that was that was maybe not so great, that that was behind the story.
41:27.35
loriejones7
yeah
41:30.56
Dana Kirchmar
um And so that book has has completely morphed now. and and there's And there's one big event that happened to me in my career that that kind of changed my career, kind of has had a very big effect on my life.
41:46.19
Dana Kirchmar
And so that now is the thread that that runs through the book with other things coming on on top of it. And um ah I'm writing originally when when it was the Little Mary Sunshine book, I was writing it for the young women that I wanted to inspire.
42:04.56
loriejones7
Mm hmm.
42:05.19
Dana Kirchmar
Now I'm writing it for, as you said before, I'm writing it for the fathers, for the brothers, for the uncles, for i'm I'm writing it for
42:05.30
loriejones7
Mm hmm.
42:17.25
Dana Kirchmar
the young women to see how fun it can be but also to have everybody have their eyes wide open that this is this is what it is and oh by the way this isn't something that happened 30 years ago this is something that's that's still going on and so um i'm in a really big hurry to finish this book because i think it's so i think it's really in important and so yeah there there are um i will say that
42:31.70
loriejones7
Yeah. Yeah.
42:42.26
loriejones7
Mm-hmm.
42:47.70
Dana Kirchmar
I would not have stayed for 37 years if the goods, the positives did not outweigh the negatives. Um, but some of the negatives were, were very, were very negative.
42:59.21
Dana Kirchmar
And, and I feel like, I feel like part of my mission is educating the men on what the women experience and how, how they experience our industry so very differently than how we experience it.
43:11.49
loriejones7
Yeah.
43:17.95
loriejones7
I think that, um, that struck a chord. My sister was one of my very first fearless females and she's an engineer. Um, and, and she, she gave her presentation and she got done and she's like, I was asking my husband whether or not I should tell them then the nitty gritty real truth.
43:37.99
loriejones7
And she ended up not. She didn't she didn't go into that.
43:40.08
Dana Kirchmar
Really?
43:41.65
loriejones7
but um But she's like, I've been in some situations that were you know, not ideal is maybe a better best way of putting them. And, and I think that, I think that's really brave to kind of come out and say, Hey, this is the reality of what, what I faced in this industry.
43:51.98
Dana Kirchmar
Yeah. Yeah.
44:02.47
loriejones7
And it may not be everybody's reality, but, but we could, we could change and help it not be the next generation's reality.
44:04.56
Dana Kirchmar
Right. Yeah.
44:12.51
Dana Kirchmar
Right, exactly. And it certainly played a part in shaping who I am today. There's no doubt about that.
44:21.56
loriejones7
Yeah, it does. and and And I love that there are people that are fearless and will stand up and kind of shine a light on and what is going on.
44:35.03
Dana Kirchmar
Yeah.
44:35.26
loriejones7
So I'll ahll look forward to that. We'll add it to our book list when it comes out.
44:39.22
Dana Kirchmar
Hey, thank you. That sounds great. Thank you.
44:42.72
loriejones7
So, Dana, what are you most proud of?
44:47.99
Dana Kirchmar
Wow. um I am most proud of my resilience. I i have worked from for very um large Fortune 50 even companies. I have worked for very small startup companies.
45:06.69
Dana Kirchmar
And I realized that my preference was smaller startup companies. And and there is a lot of there is a lot of risk that goes along with that. So it in my career, i've I've worked for four startup companies. One of them actually remained in business and and three of them didn't. And um I am proud at I, this was not always the case with me.
45:39.21
Dana Kirchmar
This is, this is what what I have evolved to. I have evolved to seeing, um, uh, the gift or the opportunity in every situation, including in losing my job.
45:42.39
loriejones7
Okay.
45:54.35
loriejones7
Yeah.
45:55.08
Dana Kirchmar
And that's a hard one because there's a lot of emotions that go along with losing your job.
45:57.38
loriejones7
Mm hmm.
46:00.05
Dana Kirchmar
Um, but even, even if it has nothing to do with you, getting fired. and and being laid off are are essentially the the same things. But but in in a layoff situation, there's really nothing you can't take that personally.
46:15.65
loriejones7
There's nothing you can do.
46:16.52
Dana Kirchmar
You can't you can't really take that personally. um but But it is a very scary place to be. So it's a scary place to be.
46:27.28
Dana Kirchmar
And yeah, I'm pretty proud of my resilience.
46:33.96
loriejones7
Is there any tactics or something that it's it's just um celebrating those wins that gets you through or is there something that you
46:44.68
Dana Kirchmar
it is It is celebrating the wins. It's also another thing that that I do when I finish a project. so So obviously I'm going to celebrate the little tiny things in between. But but when I finish a big project or or even when i when my startup goes out of business, I i get out a journal and and I write.
47:05.95
Dana Kirchmar
And I kind of try to do a chronological kind of, here here are the things to take away from this that you learned. This this is this is this may feel bad right now, but but look at all the goodness that came out of that.
47:22.34
Dana Kirchmar
And and then you have it written down. and And on the days where you're having not such a great day, you can go back and and remind yourself and remind yourself of how resilient you were.
47:33.73
Dana Kirchmar
And that's what I do.
47:33.79
loriejones7
Oh, that's great.
47:35.63
Dana Kirchmar
yeah
47:35.75
loriejones7
Yeah. That is a great idea because you do, everyone, it's inevitable. You're going to have those ups and downs in your life.
47:42.39
Dana Kirchmar
Yeah.
47:43.37
loriejones7
And if you have those, those things that you learned or things that you did well or something that you are proud of and you've got, oh, I was thinking the other day, I was like, who can I call to tell me something nice about myself?
47:56.47
loriejones7
You know, I was having one of those down days.
47:58.09
Dana Kirchmar
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
47:58.17
loriejones7
You know what I'm talking about. right
48:00.04
Dana Kirchmar
You can call me anytime please do.
48:03.29
loriejones7
Well, that's and that would have been a really good situation to have a journal or I can look back and say these are all the really great things I'm good at or things that I've learned or things that I've done or that I'm proud of.
48:06.33
Dana Kirchmar
ah for Yeah.
48:12.08
Dana Kirchmar
Yeah.
48:14.09
loriejones7
I like that. That's great.
48:14.83
Dana Kirchmar
Yeah.
48:15.99
loriejones7
So any advice for a young woman? Sounds like you mentor young women. So you probably do this all day, every day. But is there any advice for your young women who's just kind of starting on the early part of this path that you're so successful at that you want to give her?
48:31.84
Dana Kirchmar
Yeah, you know, I think what is the basis of everything and and is the biggest lesson that I have learned is to take some time and go through and determine what your values are. what What are the things that are important to you to you and what are going to be your north stars for every decision that you make going along your life? And then a little bit deeper than just the values is what are your non-negotiables? What are the things that you are and are not going to be, do, allow,
49:11.79
Dana Kirchmar
be clear in what your non-negotiables are and and be clear enough in them that you can communicate them comfortably to other people. That's that's a really big lesson that I learned. I had really mushy boundaries and and then my mushy boundaries became somebody else's expectations of me, which which then created you know created problems. So so I think one ah one of the really best things to do when you're first starting out is ah sit down and you can Google values online and and pick your top 10 or whatever. I mean, it's it's not a difficult exercise to go through, but but then then take that list of values, come up with your non-negotiables
49:58.49
Dana Kirchmar
and use that as the basis for your quarterly, hey, I'm gonna look back on where I am. You know, these are my values. Is this still true for me? Are this all? It's it's just a really great way to um to know what you want, to know what you don't want, and to keep track of where you are and and make sure that you're living in line, both both in your career and in your life, in in line with what your values are.
50:23.31
loriejones7
Yeah. I love how you've um kind of connected the two as well. Like your career and your life are not separate things.
50:33.78
Dana Kirchmar
Right, right, exactly.
50:34.98
loriejones7
And especially, yeah, if you love what you do, they are intertwined. They're going to cross over.
50:40.11
Dana Kirchmar
Yeah.
50:41.02
loriejones7
They're going to be together. And you need to make sure that you're, you're heading in the right direction for both of them so that you don't forget to get married if you want to or have kids.
50:47.20
Dana Kirchmar
Yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly. Whoops, exactly.
50:52.73
loriejones7
Yeah. Yeah. So. Thank you so, so much, Dana, for joining me today and for, um I just, I really enjoyed our conversation and I've learned so much. So thank you for doing this for me. If I have listeners that want to get in touch with you and take advantage of your knowledge or ask you questions, how do they do that?
51:13.42
Dana Kirchmar
um My email address is dana, D-A-N-A, at danakerchmar.com, and that's D-A-N-A-K-I-R-C-H-M-A-R dot.com. um And my website is danakerchmar.com, and there are all kinds of ways to connect me with me through through my website as well.
51:31.96
loriejones7
Oh, perfect. I am going to keep in touch because I want to, I want to see how this next phase goes. I'm so excited to see how, how you make a difference in the aviation industry with women.
51:43.96
Dana Kirchmar
but Well, thank you so much for giving me the time and and the platform to talk about what's so important to me.
51:45.63
loriejones7
So thank you for joining us.
51:51.97
Dana Kirchmar
So thank you very much, Lori.