This week, Lorie Jones invites you to follow the remarkable journey of Marva Sadler, a veteran business strategist and the managing director of MLS Odyssey.
The conversation focuses on three eye-opening insights from Marva’s career: uncovering why some of the worst career advice given to women is often disguised as helpful, learning to stop waiting until you’re “80% qualified” before pursuing bigger opportunities, and embracing the mindset shift that empowered Marva to reinvent herself and thrive at age 69.
From her early days aspiring to be a journalist to navigating male-dominated boardrooms and championing women’s financial independence, Marva’s story is filled with practical wisdom and fearless candor. Whether you’re building your career, considering a pivot, or seeking to challenge outdated norms, this episode offers tools and inspiration to chart your fearless path.
Show Highlights:
- Three top books for boldly thriving and prospering as women. [03:00]
- A unique view of how journalism parallels strategy consulting. [09:10]
- Is there an acute need for small-biz consultants today? [10:11]
- Explore Theory of Constraints “Jonah” executive training. [12:41]
- Boosting a career past 65 and divorce with family LTC costs. [14:57]
- Why ditch “normal” woman advice in male-dominated boardrooms. [19:11]
- The value of gaining trusted male corporate allies as women. [24:16]
- Learning to balance outspokenness with Viktor Frankl wisdom. [28:04]
- How the right financial advisor can transform your life and future. [32:18]
- Navigating self-doubt and the journey to embracing expertise. [37:44]
- Must-hear gender data on competence vs. self-qualification. [40:17]
- How dialogue can perfectly resolve unconscious bias at work. [41:33]
- Personal mission and B Corp advice for young professionals. [46:37]
- What early career women must do to succeed as themselves. [51:56]
If you enjoyed this episode, please go to Apple Podcasts and leave a review!
For more information about Lorie Jones, go to https://fearlessfinancialadvisors.com/fearless-females.
00:01.62
Lorie Jones
Good morning, fearless females. So we’re here today with Marva Sadler. She is the managing director of MLS Odyssey. And I’m so excited to just have this discussion with you, Marva. Thank you so much for joining us today.
00:15.65
Marva Sadler
Oh, I’m so delighted to be here. Thank you for inviting me.
00:19.22
Lorie Jones
So my very first question is always my favorite. I love books. Tell me what your favorite one is.
00:25.88
Marva Sadler
Well, I’m going to go a little old school. I also love books and I’m constantly reading them or listening to them on audio books. Um, and i you know, have kind of ah a book addiction.
00:38.26
Marva Sadler
I’ve gotten to the point where if I’m going to buy a new book, I have to throw something out because I have so many bookshelves in my house that I can’t fit anymore. So that gives you a background, but I’m going to go old school because I’m going to recommend some that are not necessarily the latest, greatest,
00:47.86
Lorie Jones
Yeah. that
00:56.06
Marva Sadler
but they’re really good for what they are. And what i focused on when i when you asked me this question before was, what do I think would be useful to this audience?
01:07.19
Marva Sadler
And so i came up with three. The first one is Play Like a Man, Win Like a Woman by Gail Evans. She wrote that in 1995, but it is just such a liberating book.
01:20.31
Marva Sadler
And you know typical background for somebody who writes a book like that, she was a senior person at, I think it was Fox, but it could have been another. And she ran into all of the typical things that women run into and she just was was just fearless about it.
01:39.19
Marva Sadler
So that’s the first one because it’s really good to kind of pump you up and real real life experience. The second one I discovered when I was on a really tight budget after my divorce, And it’s how to get what you want in life with the money you already have by Carol Keefe.
02:00.12
Marva Sadler
And it is just, it’s got some amazing little games you can play with yourself and a different relationship to money. And women typically don’t,
02:07.47
Lorie Jones
Mm-hmm.
02:09.88
Marva Sadler
get taught how to have a healthy relationship with money. So we overspend on stuff we don’t really need and we think too late about when we should be saving. And you know and so it it was just really good for me. And then the third one’s more recent, um How Women Rise by Sally Helgeson and Marshall Goldsmith came out in 2018. I know both Marshall and Sally, they come out of the professional coaching world And Marshall wrote a book a few years earlier that was called What Got You Here Won’t Get You There, about about the habits of managers that get in their way as they become more senior.
02:42.58
Lorie Jones
Oh yeah, I’ve had
02:47.74
Marva Sadler
And then Sally came along and said, Marshall, you dunce, um you wrote that based on your research that was 90% male. And not all these things actually apply to men.
02:59.93
Marva Sadler
And so together they wrote the version of What Got You Here Won’t Get You There. But about women where where they first off say that ah ah but of those like 12 things that Marshall named, 10 of them don’t apply.
03:13.50
Marva Sadler
And there are other things that women do mostly to make themselves small that are not helpful and how to get over that. So those are the those are the three books that I thought would be best for this audience.
03:26.26
Lorie Jones
I love it. I love those really curated suggestions. I think that’s great. And i have ah i have not reached the point yet where I’m getting rid of a book to put a new one in. I’m still at the point where I’m just building more bookshelves.
03:41.98
Lorie Jones
In fact, I just had some.
03:42.52
Marva Sadler
Well, I literally ran out of room on my walls.
03:45.27
Lorie Jones
Yeah, yeah. i’m i’m I can see that happening because I am already scouting the next place for my bookshelf. So I love that you said that. That makes me so happy.
03:55.65
Marva Sadler
I grew up in a family that had, we had this just love of books. And when I was really little, we lived in a house that had all these built-in bookshelves. And then we moved and my dad got a deal on all these floor to ceiling, like legal bookcases that were antiques. And we had one whole room that just was lined with these legal bookcases that went all the way to the ceiling.
04:20.47
Marva Sadler
And in fact, when my when my parents died and left the house, everybody in the family got one stack of these bookshelves.
04:27.77
Lorie Jones
oh I love it.
04:28.63
Marva Sadler
But that that was the way I was raised. and i just you know there’s Electronic books are okay, but they’re just not the same as being able to hold them and turn a corner and mark them and read them again and and all that
04:42.17
Lorie Jones
Oh. There’s just nothing I love more than sitting in my cozy little chair with my fuzzy little blanket with these bookshelves all around me, just kind of sitting in the sunshine, um especially on a snowy day or a rainy day and just devouring my books.
04:59.36
Lorie Jones
So I love that. That makes me so happy for you. So…
05:02.68
Marva Sadler
yes
05:03.89
Lorie Jones
Tell me a little bit about your journey, Marva. How did you get started? Like, did you ah did you already know what you wanted to be when you were going through school? Like, what are you doing now? Like, just tell me a little bit about you.
05:16.06
Marva Sadler
I started my career, well, I started with an education to become a journalist. I wanted to be a broadcast journalist. It was right after, a few years after, I’m not that old, but it was a few years after um the whole All the President’s Men thing.
05:35.16
Marva Sadler
And Woodward and Bernstein were just my heroes. And so I went to school. um to to get a degree in broadcast journalism. And I did, and I loved it. And my first job out of college was writing documentaries for a radio station in New York City.
05:52.12
Marva Sadler
And you don’t get a lot higher than that. and you know It was like, where do you go after you’ve written documentaries in New York? um And I had an opportunity to go back to business school, and I thought I was doing it to become a business journalist because at the time it really looked like that was that was the future, that you kind of needed to specialize and become an expert. And I wanted to become a business general journalist and work for NPR.
06:18.78
Marva Sadler
And so I went to get my MBA and I was probably three weeks into my classes and just went. I’d not been exposed to business really a lot. My dad was an engineer. he built highways.
06:30.36
Marva Sadler
for his whole career. And my mother was a housewife. we She had eight kids. So I hadn’t been really, i i went on vacations with my family to see bridges being built or highway construction projects.
06:37.81
Lorie Jones
Mm-hmm.
06:44.72
Marva Sadler
Those were the things that mattered to my family. And so business was not in the cards. And so three weeks into this thing, I was like, Oh, this is like the answer to all the questions in the universe. this is This makes so much sense. This tells me all about how the world runs and why and why people make decisions. And I just fell in love.
07:06.68
Marva Sadler
And so by the time this was the kind of roaring 80s where strategy consulting was really hot and growing very fast, And so when I got out of my program and I did manage to graduate number one in my program because I am pretty competitive, um I was able to convince the folks at Bain & Company, the consulting firm, that writing documentaries, being a journalist, writing documentaries and doing strategy consulting were really the same business model.
07:37.11
Marva Sadler
It was all about having something you were interested in, a question you wanted to answer, gathering information, interviewing people, doing the analysis, putting it all together, and then persuading people what you wanted them to know.
07:53.08
Marva Sadler
And I said, you know, the difference is journalists do it with words and consultants do it mostly with numbers, but it’s the same thing. And they bought it and I joined Bait & Company.
08:05.03
Lorie Jones
Wow, I love that.
08:07.35
Marva Sadler
So from there, I basically, I went to another strategy firm when I, when my husband got transferred um into New York. And so I couldn’t work in Boston anymore.
08:18.08
Marva Sadler
And then I kind of reinvented myself a few times and ended up as a small business strategist.
08:22.92
Lorie Jones
Thank you.
08:26.84
Marva Sadler
So I focus in my business on helping small business owners through crisis situations, essentially, because small business owners are busy doing everything. And they only, you know, they have a lot of width and in what they do a lot of breadth, but they’ve usually not faced, cross your heart, you know they have not faced a really crisis situation. And so they don’t know what to do and they usually leave it too late. And it’s what causes small businesses to fail as they run into something they just don’t understand and they don’t know where to go for help.
09:02.73
Lorie Jones
Mm-hmm.
09:03.35
Marva Sadler
Most consultants won’t help because the deal is not big enough to make it interesting. So you you can’t get a big consulting firm to talk to a small business. And I really love small business. So that’s what I specialize in is helping these business owners, you know, kind of save their companies. And then because I have career ADD and I’m really interested in what’s going on right now that’s really exciting and new or you know a crisis, I really do well in crises.
09:32.50
Marva Sadler
I realized that I was going to constantly jump from job to job if I did it that way, if I went into a company and fixed it. So that’s why I became a consultant. So I can have that kind of constant um motivation of I’m fixing the most important problem these people have, and I can do that for a while and then I can move on and do it for somebody else.
09:52.41
Lorie Jones
Yeah. Yeah. I, I, gravitate towards that early space, that early entrepreneur, like that energy that comes with a small business. I like that, but, but once you build it and it kind of gets going, then, then you need that constant, you know, you need another place to get that energy from.
10:12.93
Lorie Jones
So I love
10:12.89
Marva Sadler
Well, yeah, you know, it, it, frankly, it gets boring.
10:16.88
Lorie Jones
it. It does.
10:17.11
Marva Sadler
And because it’s, I am a person who recognizes patterns. And once the pattern is really established, I want to go somewhere else because I’ve seen that pattern. I know how it plays out. I know what’s going to happen good and bad, and I’ve taught them all that they need to know. And so I want to go discover a new pattern.
10:34.25
Lorie Jones
Yeah. Yeah. What is the best investment you’ve made in yourself? as As you kind of look across this journey, um is there something that you have invested in or done for yourself or your career that you’re like, oh, my gosh, I just wouldn’t be where I’m at today without this?
10:51.32
Marva Sadler
Well, I want to talk about two investments. I’m going to break the rule.
10:54.55
Lorie Jones
Okay.
10:54.55
Marva Sadler
One of them is a very traditional investment, and one of them is a kind of not quite so traditional. So the traditional investment, when I was a when i was the CFO of Achieve Global, um the CEO, who was actually CEO of two divisions of Times Mirror, was offering all his senior execs the opportunity to go get their and MBAs, and he would pay for it.
11:04.03
Lorie Jones
Thank
11:18.17
Marva Sadler
And I already had my MBA. So I said, i don’t really want an MBA, but what I really do want is I want to go to this executive program that will teach me how to become a Theory of Constraints Jonah.
11:30.10
Marva Sadler
And the Theory of Constraints was developed in the early 80s by a guy named Eli Goldratt.
11:37.70
Lorie Jones
Mm-hmm.
11:38.14
Marva Sadler
And um he he had some, he was a physicist, had some affiliation with BCG, Baston Consulting Group. And at Bain, I had gotten a bootleg copy of the book before it had been published of of his first book.
11:53.11
Marva Sadler
And I was just fascinated by it. And I used it in a couple of my projects. And so later on, I found about ah out about this program that I could become a theory of constraints. Jonah, I could actually learn all the tricks and all the… And so that’s what I did. I went and I took this.
12:09.14
Marva Sadler
It was quite an intense course. It was, I think, two weeks at a time, three times or something, total of six weeks of really intensive training. And it taught me how to think differently, not just how to, but how to really go, not just at what I’m seeing as the symptoms, but how to really go all the way down to what’s causing these symptoms and what fundamentally do we have to change in an organization in order to make the symptoms go away and have good things happen. Because a lot of people solve problems at the superficial level.
12:43.00
Marva Sadler
You know, I’m not making money so I cut costs.
12:43.07
Lorie Jones
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
12:45.68
Marva Sadler
I’m, you know, I’m not getting customers so I’ll advertise more. And it’s not necessarily the right answer. And so that learning how to be this this Jonah, I also learned how to create value propositions in people’s minds so that when they had conflicts, I could walk them through a process of how to break that conflict so that they could have come up with a solution that everybody was happy with.
13:09.30
Marva Sadler
And I have used that for a really long time. So that’s that’s my traditional investment.
13:12.77
Lorie Jones
Oh. Mm-hmm.
13:14.76
Marva Sadler
And I fortunately didn’t have to pay for it, but I got all the benefit of it. um The untraditional investment is one that I’m making right now.
13:26.74
Marva Sadler
And it um I came to this crossroads in my life in the last, it’s really like six months where I sat down and kind of reviewed as I do pretty much every beginning of every year. So about that time, I was looking at my life and thinking, you know, Marva, you’re going to be 69 this year. You’re still working.
13:49.24
Marva Sadler
um And I was looking at my investment portfolio and everything else and, and the realities of the world. And I just like, I got divorced when I was 50 and I started all over.
13:59.58
Marva Sadler
So I didn’t have a big enough investment portfolio because my ex-husband had just drained me dry.
14:05.64
Lorie Jones
Mm-hmm.
14:05.69
Marva Sadler
And I started over when I was 50.
14:05.88
Lorie Jones
Mm-hmm.
14:08.41
Marva Sadler
And so I can’t live the life I want to live just on my investments. And to make it to make matters a little more complicated, i support an adult son who has health problems and can’t work.
14:20.57
Marva Sadler
And that’s not going away anytime soon. So whatever my portfolio is, it has to support two of us in the manner that I would like to be accustomed because I i like nice things. i mean I’m not extravagant, but I just, I like not having to pinch pennies all the time.
14:36.34
Marva Sadler
So I was looking at kind of rebooting my career and I was facing this kind of go with the safe, modestly valuable proposition of working for somebody else.
14:50.84
Marva Sadler
or do some really wild thing. And I decided to do this really wild thing. I hired a marketing firm. They’re building me a website. They’re creating a marketing campaign. They’re doing the whole funnel and everything else. And I’m about to launch a marketing campaign to generate more business for my own personal consulting.
15:11.40
Lorie Jones
Mm-hmm. Uh-huh.
15:12.02
Marva Sadler
And I just happened to come across this marketing group that focuses specifically on coaches and consultants with high ticket offerings. And so it’s working out really well. I mean, I don’t know yet because I haven’t launched the website, but the reason that it’s a good investment for me, I went from being just bored and tired and wondering how long I could keep doing this to being really energized and excited and feeling creative and, you know, all kinds of things. that came with the idea of, oh, I’m going to reinvent myself again and do something new and exciting.
15:53.21
Marva Sadler
And I’m not going to just take the safe path.
15:55.99
Lorie Jones
her
15:56.15
Marva Sadler
And so um you’ll have to ask me in a few years whether it worked.
16:01.59
Lorie Jones
Yeah, I’ll come back around. I’ll circle back around and see how that worked out.
16:03.58
Marva Sadler
Yeah. but But what I can say has worked about it is that I get up every day excited about what I’m doing. I’ve written a chapter, the opening chapter in a book for entrepreneurship.
16:15.96
Marva Sadler
And I’m about to you know publish that. And then I’ve signed a contract to write a book this fall about small business and you know the kinds of problems that they face. I’m looking into hiring somebody to help me do a TED talk.
16:31.51
Marva Sadler
And so I’ve gone from kind of getting settled to getting all excited again.
16:38.84
Lorie Jones
Yeah. yeah
16:39.58
Marva Sadler
And I think that that’s worthwhile.
16:41.69
Lorie Jones
Yeah. And and i i it’s interesting that you’re closer to the end than the beginning. And you still, ah like, i I think that you never stop that learning and that growth and that excitement.
16:56.14
Lorie Jones
You never stop needing that challenge. And and you’ve taken on a challenge. Yeah.
17:01.96
Marva Sadler
Well, we are living organisms. And what we know from biology is that things that stop growing die. and that And we translate that into people. People who get bored with their lives age a lot faster than people who stay engaged.
17:17.94
Marva Sadler
And I decided I’m just not ready to be an old woman yet. So I i decided to reinvent and re-engage.
17:24.21
Lorie Jones
I’m gonna do it yeah I like that what um did you ever really get some bad advice Marva along your path is there something you can think of where you’re like that’s the worst advice I’ve ever gotten and did you take it or did you not take it what did you learn
17:41.50
Marva Sadler
um I have had really bad advice. I’ve had lots of bad advice, but the worst advice is advice that a lot of women get. And um you can probably tell by now that I’m a little bit unconventional and I’m a little bit out there and outspoken and direct. and And so the advice I got from the time I was pretty young, actually, was to
18:02.02
Lorie Jones
Thank
18:05.94
Marva Sadler
to be more normal. I mean, like I would, I would actually get told that you’re going to have to be more normal. um You’re going to need to, you know, be calmer and quieter and more submissive. And, you know, think of all those nasty words that just make the hair crawl on the back of your neck.
18:24.28
Marva Sadler
I was told, told all those things. And every time I tried it I was so uncomfortable, I was so unhappy, I was just miserable, and I didn’t do well. you know Every time I tried to play small to fit the image of what a good woman should do, it worked out badly for me.
18:44.28
Marva Sadler
And so I just kind of threw that out at one point and just said, to heck with that, I’m gonna be me. And if people don’t like me, then too bad for them.
18:57.11
Marva Sadler
you know, and and i’m and that doesn’t mean I’m abusive or abrasive or, you know, mostly I’m not obnoxious. Some people would say I’m obnoxious, but um but I just quit trying to moderate my behaviors or my attitudes.
19:12.41
Marva Sadler
I quit trying to, ten you know, muzzle myself when I wanted to speak up.
19:20.05
Lorie Jones
Mm-hmm.
19:20.06
Marva Sadler
And, um you know, even as a senior executive, there were times when i would get the i would get the feedback, usually through the grapevine, that not officially, but through the grapevine, I’d get the feedback of, you know, Marva, the men don’t really like it when you speak up and they really wish that you’d quiet down.
19:43.13
Marva Sadler
And i just I just got to where I would say, well, that’s their problem, not my problem. You know, the reason they don’t want me to speak up is because I’m speaking truth that they don’t want to have to deal with.
19:54.78
Marva Sadler
And I’ll give you an example. When I was an executive vice president at FranklinCovey, I was the only active female on the senior team. And there were 16 of us, which is frankly too many executive vice presidents, too many by ah by at least half.
20:09.59
Marva Sadler
But we were in this we’re in the strategy meeting one day and the CEO pipes up and he says, I’ve got this idea. I think that we you know we should look at every one of our small companies that aren’t generating enough revenue or income
20:26.03
Lorie Jones
Thank
20:25.98
Marva Sadler
to really be meaningful to the organization as a whole. And we should put them on a strategy that they either become significantly more profitable and more relevant to what we do, or we should get rid of them.
20:39.83
Marva Sadler
What do you guys think? And all the way around the table, all these men were going, yep, that’s a good idea. Yep, that’s a good idea. it got to me and he said, Marva, what do you think? And I said, what I think is that we’re wasting our time having this conversation. They’re too small to be relevant.
20:55.52
Marva Sadler
They’re not core to our business and they’re not making money. We should be getting rid of them now. And they all just went dead quiet. And one of them looked at me and said, why don’t you tell us what you really think?
21:08.02
Marva Sadler
And I was just like, it’s so clear. If you were in a business school case study, that is what they tell you. They’re not core. They’re not profitable and they’re not big enough. Let’s sell them.
21:19.06
Marva Sadler
And I just, but I rocked the boat. Instead, I was supposed to be going, oh yes, your holiness. You know, that’s a wonderful idea. You’re so brilliant. I’m like, that’s a three-year-old, three years ago product decision. You should have made it when you first became CEO.
21:33.94
Lorie Jones
Yeah, yeah, that’s so it’s so interesting, too, because you do spend a lot of time more than i think most people would like to admit as a woman trying to gauge the balance of your behavior.
21:48.60
Lorie Jones
Are you outspoken and um commanding and being labeled as too aggressive? Are you um friendly and um bend over backwards to try to make every everyone everyone feel comfortable, but get labeled as aggressive?
22:08.28
Lorie Jones
not aggressive enough or not.
22:09.54
Marva Sadler
Too nice, too nice, not strategic enough, all of those things.
22:11.03
Lorie Jones
Yeah. Too nice. Yeah.
22:14.39
Lorie Jones
yeah
22:14.95
Marva Sadler
Yeah. Well, so I’m going to go back to the beginning of our conversation and say, read How Women Rise, because the book talks about those specific things.
22:25.75
Marva Sadler
um But also, I just really believe that until women speak up on a regular basis and insist on being heard, and I’m not saying, you know, I’m not suggesting that we go out and company and burn our bras or you know any of the stuff that went on in the 60s.
22:40.83
Marva Sadler
But I am saying that we hold our ground and that just because there’s this you know toxic masculinity of, you know and that’s getting worse in a lot of places, that men don’t least and need to listen to women or that you know we should soften up because it makes them uncomfortable.
22:44.59
Lorie Jones
Mm-hmm.
23:00.11
Marva Sadler
it’s i just think it’s nonsense. we We need to help them become more comfortable. And maybe that means soliciting a few allies among the men who will be supportive, not taking on the whole world all at one time, but you know being selective about how we do it, but find people who actually will agree with us and will work with us. And then when they tell us we’re being too outspoken or too you know we’re pushing too hard, we can trust them because they actually have our interests at heart.
23:32.39
Lorie Jones
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
23:33.03
Marva Sadler
Don’t listen to the people who you know do not have your interests at heart. And there are people in your life like that. There are especially people in your work like that, where you have to just say, I know this individual is not really giving me good advice for my sake.
23:49.02
Lorie Jones
Yeah, I actually had a situation like that in one of the positions I was in um where I could almost guarantee you whatever this person’s answer was, it was whatever would be mean the least amount of work.
24:03.16
Lorie Jones
Like but just not in it to do. So, so if I came up with an idea, it was labeled as too much or too aggressive or too forward if it involved any amount of work for this other person.
24:15.21
Lorie Jones
Right. And so I, I just, it’s, they, they did not, they, they didn’t even have the best interests of the company in mind. A lot of times they just.
24:24.95
Marva Sadler
the They frequently don’t, especially in big companies, because in big companies, you know, the game is not really the how is the company doing?
24:28.86
Lorie Jones
Mm-hmm.
24:34.50
Marva Sadler
It’s how am I doing?
24:35.72
Lorie Jones
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
24:36.02
Marva Sadler
Am I getting, you know, tagged for the good promotions? Am I being visible and seen? Do people think I’m cool? Am I making a lot of money? And and so there is so much politics, politics just political manipulation and, um you know,
24:54.04
Marva Sadler
and positioning that goes on in big companies that they frequently don’t ever get around to it. Okay. Are we doing the right thing for the business? They don’t ask that. So give you an example of that.
25:05.98
Marva Sadler
I was the CFO of the training division at Franklin Covey, as well as those the chief, um, I was the, whatever it was, EVP of business plan implementation, which meant I was in charge of all the big corporate projects.
25:19.45
Marva Sadler
So I’m walking down the hall one day and these guys that are supposed to be the strategy team for the training division pull me in and in an office that they’ve been working in and they’re like, Marvo, we’ve got this great idea and this, this is the strategic answer to how we grow the training division.
25:36.22
Marva Sadler
And I said, great, what’s the plan? And they said, oh, well, we don’t do that. And I said, wait wait a minute, aren’t you the strategy team?
25:47.03
Marva Sadler
Well, yeah, but we’ve got we’ve got a job doing strategy. And I said, but you just said this was the single most important thing the organization needed to do for its growth and profitability.
25:58.94
Marva Sadler
Isn’t that the job of the strategy team? and And they just, they said, oh, you don’t understand.
26:07.35
Marva Sadler
and And I said, well, what are you so what are you suggesting? Oh, we need to hire a whole new group that will do that thing. and And I said, but you haven’t tested it yet. You don’t actually have a plan for it yet.
26:19.16
Marva Sadler
Why would we hire a group to do that? Anyway, you can you can get the, ah you know, it was about, they wanted this they wanted to have this credit for this great idea. They didn’t actually want to do the work to make it happen.
26:30.87
Lorie Jones
Yeah. Yeah. That’s so funny. it’s And you run into it so much more often than you think you will. What about, Marva, what about looking back along your journey and your path?
26:37.85
Marva Sadler
Yes, you do.
26:42.37
Lorie Jones
Are there some places, ah maybe one thing in particular that you were like, oh, I wish I had a do over. Like, I know so much more now than I did then. i would do that so differently.
26:57.24
Marva Sadler
You know what? This is probably not going to surprise you given the theme of this. um
27:02.63
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
27:03.03
Marva Sadler
There have been a couple times that I can look back at where I think I was actually too outspoken.
27:11.26
Lorie Jones
yeah
27:12.09
Marva Sadler
Where I, if I breathed a little longer or I’d taken some time to get myself centered, i would have been more diplomatic with what I said.
27:24.80
Marva Sadler
Neither of the the times that I just related to you, though, would be one of those times. So think about something that would be far more kind of
27:31.19
Lorie Jones
ah
27:32.58
Marva Sadler
outspoken than that. um there have There have been times when had I had a little more patience and um and just been a little more calm about the way I approached it, it would have been better for me personally for the way that my career transitioned and for the organization that I was working for.
27:59.99
Marva Sadler
But I can’t say that I regret them so much that I wouldn’t do it. I can just say um’ i there might have been a better way to do it. I might have come across as more gracious and not necessarily you know a wild haired, crazy woman.
28:18.33
Marva Sadler
But I’m not really sorry because in both the in those instances that I can think about, it all turned out okay.
28:29.98
Marva Sadler
And that I think is maybe one of the biggest things is, you know, you’re gonna make some mistakes in your life. Don’t beat yourself up about it forever. It it doesn’t matter.
28:37.37
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
28:37.56
Marva Sadler
You know, pick yourself up, say, okay, I made a mistake. I’ll try not to do that again. I’ll try to make a different mistake next time.
28:45.27
Lorie Jones
yeah Yeah. What is it? that I love that quote.
28:47.26
Marva Sadler
And I’m gonna move on.
28:48.75
Lorie Jones
That’s something about um try, fail, try again, fail better. Like, yeah.
28:55.08
Marva Sadler
Yes, exactly.
28:57.66
Lorie Jones
I like that idea. But ah that it does bring up like i I’m not going to say regrets, but definitely there are learning experiences along the way and things that you’re like, you know, i don’t regret doing that. But if I do it again, i’m going to do it differently.
29:18.02
Marva Sadler
And, and one of those things that I, that I try to remember kind of on a daily basis is the Viktor Frankl, there is a space between stimulus and response. And in that space we decide.
29:29.08
Marva Sadler
And I try to use that as a mantra when I’m getting really wound up about something and I want to jump right on it. It’s like, okay, Marva, there’s a space, use the space. Think about it before you speak, because it’s easier to change what you say before you’ve said it than after.
29:46.97
Lorie Jones
and her Yeah, that is something really wise. It really is. It’s easier to change something and before you say it rather than.
29:56.95
Marva Sadler
especially in writing, by the way, that I have learned when I really get energized and I start to write an email to get up and walk away for a while, come back and revise the email.
29:57.21
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
30:00.57
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
30:09.38
Marva Sadler
And if I have to do it two or three times, it’s still better than sending something that I’ll regret later.
30:15.25
Lorie Jones
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Sometimes letting it.
30:17.08
Marva Sadler
Because ah a lot of times i only really speak up when somebody’s really irritated me. You know, because if it’s just unimportant stuff, I let it go So they have to have done something really egregious and really irritated me. And I’m going to get really puffed up about that.
30:36.18
Lorie Jones
Yeah. Letting it set, letting it set overnight sometimes is a really good tactic to use, too, if you can.
30:44.70
Marva Sadler
Yes. But at least over a couple of hours, go take a walk in nature, take some deep breaths.
30:50.49
Lorie Jones
yeah ever
30:51.48
Marva Sadler
Yeah. And don’t drink another cup of coffee. Don’t wind yourself up anymore.
30:55.86
Lorie Jones
Yeah. Yeah. I’m just going to put that on a little sticky note and stick it somewhere in my office because that is exactly what I need to hear sometimes.
31:04.86
Marva Sadler
And then it’s such a natural thing. I’ve got to get up and take a break. Oh, I’ll go get a, I don’t drink coffee, but I drink Diet Coke. I’ll go get a Diet Coke. But the caffeine is not your friend in that situation.
31:15.37
Lorie Jones
Yeah. Yeah. So if you could high five yourself for one great past financial decision, what would that be?
31:26.49
Marva Sadler
Well, I’ll start by telling you about a bad financial decision because it led to the good to financial decision.
31:30.38
Lorie Jones
Okay.
31:33.27
Marva Sadler
And um when I was, i don’t know, in my late 30s, ended up in one of those events that I talked about where I probably should have been more circumspect and I lost my job.
31:50.74
Marva Sadler
But in losing my job, I also got a million dollar settlement. um the way that it went down. Because I lost, ah anyway, the circumstances were, although I got upset, there was reason that I got upset. And so I ended up with this money in my hands.
32:08.38
Marva Sadler
um And my parents had this long-term investor, this this investment advisor that they persuaded me to use. And I went, I sat down with him. I was very clear with him about what I wanted And I explicitly told him not to over distribute my stuff into, you know, to to put it in too many small investments and not to invest in funds that were heavily involved in tech stocks, because I could see coming down the pike that there was a big tech bubble and there was going to be a big readjustment.
32:41.05
Marva Sadler
And so I just said, i don’t want to be in tech stocks because they’re going to lose value. Well, he did not what was best for me, but what was best for himself. He spread my investments to optimize his commission and he put them in the things that were paying the most commission. And a lot of them were heavily involved in tech talks. text talks And overnight, almost, I lost like 70% of the value of my money.
33:10.68
Marva Sadler
And I was really angry, really, really angry. I couldn’t talk to my parents about it because they were really loyal to him and he had done good work for them.
33:19.47
Lorie Jones
Yep.
33:19.99
Marva Sadler
um And so that was the worst financial decision I ever made because that was the that was my nest egg and it disappeared. The best financial decision I ever made came out of that because I don’t have the patience i for investing my own money.
33:36.25
Marva Sadler
I don’t want to do the research. i And I am too impatient when the stock goes up and down. And so I knew that I’m better at making money for other people and making money for myself. And I should not be the one investing it. So I found a young and coming financial advisor who had just absolute integrity.
33:57.02
Marva Sadler
He analyzed my portfolio. He’s the one that told me what this guy had done to me. And he became my investment advisor. I i was… I had enough at that time to, you know, to attract him because he was just starting.
34:12.15
Marva Sadler
And I couldn’t become one of his clients today because he only deals with multimillion dollar investment you know portfolios.
34:18.65
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
34:19.38
Marva Sadler
But he stuck with me. He stuck with me for the last like 30 years. And he’s done a great job and he’s done a great job, not just investing for me, but he’s been such a good advisor.
34:31.74
Marva Sadler
He’s calm. He’s patient. He listens very carefully. He advises very intelligently. At one time, I moved my mother’s money over to him and he managed my mother’s money for 20 years after, you know, and and we were able to from the money that she had after my dad died.
34:53.21
Marva Sadler
we were able to help her live really well. And we had this great strategy. And then the money went on to take care of my sister for the next 10 years. And when all of that was over, he had invested it so well that it was almost exactly what it was worth before all that money had been spent that I was able to give back to the rest of my siblings.
35:15.13
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
35:15.22
Marva Sadler
And and he he has stuck with me through all this time. And he will call me and he’ll tell me when I’m you know i’ll Or I’ll call him and say, you need to get out of this. And he’ll go, no, Marvy, you need to just calm down.
35:27.42
Lorie Jones
ha
35:28.25
Marva Sadler
Let me do my job. um So that is the best decision I ever made was to recognize i should not be managing my own investments. And I needed to find somebody that I trusted.
35:38.46
Lorie Jones
Well, you know, that is an answer near and dear to my heart as a financial advisor. i think that I love hearing stories of really good financial advisors out there that are doing the right thing because that’s what we believe in. You know, that’s what I believe in is doing the right thing for our clients. And and um I resonate really strongly with your story that you are busy doing your life. You are busy doing, building your business and And or, you know, raising kids or or doing your life and you don’t have time for the minutia of investments.
36:16.66
Marva Sadler
And in my case, I am a financial person. I’ve been a CFO multiple times.
36:20.38
Lorie Jones
hmm.
36:22.01
Marva Sadler
But being a financial person and being a financial management expert are two very different things.
36:28.36
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
36:28.95
Marva Sadler
If I were running a big corporation and had, you know, money that needed to be invested or managed as a portfolio, I would hire people to do that who did it as a living.
36:41.37
Marva Sadler
Even, you know, even just because there are things I do well and I understand finances and I can understand when they talk to me about the way they’re investing my money. but I don’t want to make those decisions.
36:54.03
Lorie Jones
I want to make the decisions. Yeah, exactly.
36:55.48
Marva Sadler
Yeah.
36:57.02
Lorie Jones
What scared you the most when you started your career? Did anything? And does it still scare you today?
37:05.72
Marva Sadler
Well, when I started at Bain & Company, um even though I graduated number one in my class, and I felt like I was reasonably smart and I was really excited about doing it,
37:18.23
Marva Sadler
i was There were only two people from my university that got recruited to join Bain. And I walked into this place where there were hundreds of Harvard and Stanford graduates.
37:34.07
Marva Sadler
And I was so intimidated. it was It was probably the most scared I’ve ever been. I was intimidated by everything. Plus, I was pregnant with my second child. I was the only, there was only one other woman in the entire Bain who had a child.
37:50.71
Lorie Jones
Oh, wow.
37:51.42
Marva Sadler
And I was the first one to be pregnant while I was there. You know, it was big, It was a big deal. And so I just felt incredibly intimidated and like I couldn’t possibly be qualified to give CEOs advice about how to run their businesses or anything else. And it took me a good three years to catch up and realize, oh, I probably have a better education than they have because so much of their education went towards form over substance, you know, looking smart, feeling smart, acting smart.
38:24.02
Marva Sadler
showing off for each other rather than the fundamentals that I’d learned. um It took me three years to figure out I was as smart as they were and that the stuff, the analysis I did and the advice that I gave was every bit as good as theirs.
38:38.33
Marva Sadler
And so I was behind by at least three years because they were jettisoning forward while I was still going, I’m not so sure I should, you know I’m not sure I belong in this game.
38:48.19
Marva Sadler
So that…
38:48.66
Lorie Jones
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
38:49.88
Marva Sadler
so that That was the thing that frightened me the most. And no, I am no longer frightened about it. I just, and and not just no longer frightened about those people from years ago. I’m just not in, I’m not frightened about not being the smartest person in the room. In fact, I regularly hire people that are better at what they do than I could possibly be at what they do.
39:12.66
Marva Sadler
And that’s you know why you do it. You hire people who know more than you know so that you can benefit from their knowledge. And you just got to get over yourself.
39:23.04
Lorie Jones
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. like that. There is ah a strong sense of imposter syndrome. A lot of times you’ll find in women that where we feel like we need to have extra credentials or we need to do it better than are we absolutely have to have every single box checked before we apply for something to do something that’s it’s
39:47.51
Marva Sadler
You know, there are studies that say that on average, women look at a job description and will only apply if they think they’re at least 80% qualified.
40:01.50
Marva Sadler
And they’re usually far more qualified than they believe they are. Men will look at the same job description and they’ll say, oh yeah, I got that. And they’ll apply if they believe they’re 60% qualified or because they can fake the rest. And generally they are significantly less qualified than they believe they are.
40:20.47
Marva Sadler
and But the men will more frequently get the job even less qualified because they’re so much more confident.
40:29.34
Lorie Jones
Yeah, we could use a little bit of that confidence, huh?
40:32.54
Marva Sadler
Yes. Which is why I say it’s it’s really hard for you to be too outspoken because when you’re uncomfortable at how and outspoken you are, you probably are not yet there.
40:46.78
Lorie Jones
What, um what about unique challenges? Did you face any unique challenges along the route because you were a woman?
40:54.49
Marva Sadler
Well, that you know the having kids at Bain thing. So that may be the most… um That may be the most unique. I don’t know. Is it possible to be most unique? That’s probably. so i had these two kids. I was a junior consultant.
41:14.46
Marva Sadler
And I was getting really bad assignments. And I thought it must be because I’m a bad consultant. And yet when i did work, I did really good work. And so I had this one manager who took me aside after I’d been there almost a year.
41:29.05
Marva Sadler
And he said, you know, Marv, I think you need to know something. I just tried to put you on a case. and And the way to succeed in strategy consulting is to get a group of managers who really like you and who will put you on the challenging, visible stuff so that you can get a reputation, so that you can get promoted.
41:46.39
Marva Sadler
He said, i just tried to put you on a case working for me. i mean, that’s a really good sign. And the managing director wouldn’t allow it. And I said, he wouldn’t allow it. Why not? And he said, he said there might be travel and you shouldn’t travel because you have kids.
42:04.06
Marva Sadler
And I just thought you should know that.
42:08.15
Marva Sadler
And it was unique because i it was the first time they’d really, you know, faced it And it was unique for me because i was just flabbergasted that anyone would make that kind of an assumption without talking to me about it.
42:23.84
Lorie Jones
Mm-hmm.
42:24.41
Marva Sadler
And so I walked into the managing director’s office. I just said, yeah, I can’t put up with that. Walked into his office because this will this would have just killed my career. And I said, may I have a few minutes of your time? And he was a little surprised. And he said, well, sure.
42:41.75
Marva Sadler
and I said, I just heard you wouldn’t let me go on a project because you thought I’d have to travel. And he said, well, of course, because you have children and you need to take care of them. And I said, that is none of your damn business.
42:55.22
Marva Sadler
I have my arrangements for how I take care of my children. Your decision to keep me from a travel job is going to ruin my career and that is not your decision to make.
43:08.25
Marva Sadler
And he said, well, I was just trying to be nice. And I said, so quit doing me favors. i want a career. i support my family. You are cutting off my ability to do this.
43:19.54
Marva Sadler
And so he said, well, fine. And he put me on the project because he thought he’d show me. And I did well on the project.
43:25.48
Lorie Jones
Mm-hmm.
43:26.62
Marva Sadler
And I had to go to France once for four days. And that was the only travel that was required. But it was I was constantly kind of facing that.
43:37.50
Marva Sadler
and that And I had to really push past it. And it I think it’s part of why i got past the being playing small or being quiet because i was I felt like I was fighting for my future, that I couldn’t afford to just step back and let other people make decisions for me.
43:55.47
Lorie Jones
Mm hmm. I find it interesting that he thought he was being he was being helpful. And like, how do you get around that? Because that sometimes they do think they’re being helpful. And actually, you know, like like, would you just wait until like you give the same opportunities to a female employee as you would to a male employee unless they come to you and say, hey, I can’t travel?
44:25.30
Marva Sadler
Or, you know, surprise, surprise, have a conversation with them.
44:29.34
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
44:30.30
Marva Sadler
I mean, just that’s, it would, cause that’s how it we resolved it. We had a 10 minute conversation and, and that was one of those times when I was quite outspoken and it might’ve been better if I, you know, calmed down a little bit, but, um but, but, you know, if he thought he was doing me a favor, he could have asked, or he could have asked the manager to ask.
44:35.83
Lorie Jones
Mm-hmm.
44:51.39
Lorie Jones
Mm-hmm.
44:52.09
Marva Sadler
and And then listen to what the manager had to say, because the manager tried to tell him, i was a grownup and I could make my own decisions and he wouldn’t listen.
45:02.30
Lorie Jones
Yeah, that’s so interesting. It just really is interesting. Because you you don’t, I don’t think they would have been worried about what you certainly had men in that company that had kids, right?
45:14.10
Marva Sadler
Oh, absolutely. And they bragged about ridiculous things. Like I had this one guy that I worked with who bragged about that he’d had to go on a business trip the week that his wife was gonna deliver their third kid or something like that. And she went into labor early.
45:31.19
Marva Sadler
And so he was on the phone while she was in delivery because he was 2000 miles away and he was proud of it. I’m a good dad because I was on the phone during delivery.
45:43.86
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
45:44.02
Marva Sadler
And I’m like, you’re a lousy dad because you didn’t ground yourself for a couple of weeks at least before her due date.
45:51.38
Lorie Jones
Yeah. Yeah.
45:52.70
Marva Sadler
and And so, yeah, they they absolutely had it, but they were dealing with it very differently for the men.
45:58.54
Lorie Jones
Mm hmm. Yeah, that brings up ah it brings up a really lot of questions as to if we’ve have we gotten any better at that? um you know are we Are we looking at the differences and in ah ah the gender of our workforce and still making decisions based on perceived you know perceived needs or perceived desires?
46:24.06
Marva Sadler
I think statistically, we really haven’t gotten much better. And I think attitudinally in a lot of places we’re heading in the wrong direction. you know political the The stuff that we’re seeing reflected in the politics is also being reflected in corporations.
46:32.56
Lorie Jones
Mm-hmm.
46:39.86
Marva Sadler
you know Corporations are dropping their DEI requirements. They’re killing those departments. They’ve stopped any kind of affirmative action that would help anybody.
46:52.86
Marva Sadler
um And so I think we’re going backwards and and i I think that means that we’re gonna have to advocate for ourselves. I also think it means that we’re gonna have to be really careful about understanding who we’re working with or who we’re working for.
47:10.30
Marva Sadler
and And it’s important for us to do the research and ask the questions when we’re looking to get hired so that we go with those organizations who still represent fairness and equality.
47:25.30
Marva Sadler
and And there are some who are very clearly making that stand in the positive direction. And I think we need to support them.
47:32.15
Lorie Jones
Yeah, that that is really good advice because um a lot of the younger generation that that’s coming into the workforce, they’re very careful about um they aren’t just doing a job. the days of working for a company for 50 years or over, um they are supporting um ah a mission, a personal mission, you know, with their employment.
47:56.25
Marva Sadler
Yes.
47:57.59
Lorie Jones
And so, so looking a little bit deeper into what that company that you want to align yourself with, what they actually believe in um you know, what their values are, that’s important.
48:11.67
Marva Sadler
And the studies say that people who can find the personal mission and then fulfill it through their work, whether that’s, you know, working by themselves or in a small company or finding a way to, I’m fascinated by Corps.
48:24.41
Marva Sadler
you know, and the ones that are set up to actually give some of their money to worthy causes. um And if if that is what solves your need and your you know mission and purpose, and you can work with somebody like that, the research says that you’re going to be much more fulfilled.
48:45.46
Lorie Jones
So Marva, what is the thing you are the most proud of?
48:51.90
Marva Sadler
From a career perspective, Perhaps the thing I’m most proud of is I took four years off kind of my regular career track, and I worked as the program manager for a nonprofit that helped low-income women, mostly single moms, learn how to earn a women living wage.
49:12.50
Marva Sadler
And so the the nonprofit was, its purpose was to teach these women how to get a job, keep a job, and move up in the job.
49:23.38
Marva Sadler
and how to do that consistently so that, because the mission overall was, you know, that we felt that the only real way to help children out of poverty was to help their mothers learn how to earn a living.
49:34.87
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
49:35.32
Marva Sadler
And I did that for four years and I did it full-time while I also was a a part-time CFO for several clients because nonprofits don’t pay real well.
49:47.86
Lorie Jones
yeah
49:48.47
Marva Sadler
and And, but it was it was a great accomplishment because the executive director, when i um I, had been on her board and she asked me to just take this on and see if I could do something with it. And she said, I want you to triple the size of the organization, but I don’t want you to spend any money.
50:06.06
Lorie Jones
Mm-hmm.
50:06.39
Marva Sadler
And I, and I found a way to do it. And we actually started two new locations. So we then had three locations and we’re operating all the way up and down the Wasatch Front in Utah. And we more than tripled the number of women that we were that we were impacting, which meant we also had to triple the number of, you know, volunteers.
50:27.42
Marva Sadler
We had to, you know, there were all kinds of things that we had to do as a, as part of that process. I think that career wise, even though it was off track completely from my career is the thing I’m most proud of because I think it had the most social value.
50:41.09
Lorie Jones
Okay, that’s cool.
50:41.78
Marva Sadler
And the thing I’m most proud of in my life is that while I did all that, I raised five fabulous children who are now adults and they’re good people, they’re honest, they’re responsible, they’re accomplished. I have two daughters who are a pediatrician, a really well-respected pediatrician, and a PhD in physics.
51:06.68
Marva Sadler
And then I have three sons who are a senior operations manager, a PhD in astrobiology, and a software developer.
51:16.47
Lorie Jones
Yeah, I love that. And it does, it makes, i i have five kids of my own and I’m pretty proud of their accomplishments too. their so They’re still working on getting their education.
51:27.68
Lorie Jones
They’re a little bit on the younger end right now. But um but watching them develop and grow and go give good things into this world, that’s an accomplishment.
51:37.98
Marva Sadler
Exactly. Just being good people and and the way they treat each other.
51:41.30
Lorie Jones
Mm-hmm.
51:43.45
Marva Sadler
It makes me so proud.
51:47.32
Lorie Jones
Any advice for a young lady who’s kind of just starting down this path to help her be successful like you?
51:54.14
Marva Sadler
Yeah. You know, my most important advice is don’t try to succeed like me or like any other person that you admire. succeed like you figure out what matters to you figure out where your strengths are figure out where your you know blind spots are that you need to pay attention to and then chart your own course not you don’t have to be like anybody else uh my my daughter the the
52:25.42
Marva Sadler
pediatrician actually was a clinician. She was really good. She was very well respected. She was voted, you know, one of the best pediatricians in the Yakima Valley.
52:35.69
Lorie Jones
Mm-hmm.
52:36.09
Marva Sadler
And she had twins. And by the time the twins were about two, she said, i’m changing the way that I work because I realized I have these two kids. I’m never going to have any others.
52:48.73
Marva Sadler
And i am leaving my children with somebody else. to go take care of other people’s children all day. And she changed the way she did her work. And, and she thought I was going to be upset with her because she was quote, giving up her career.
53:04.06
Marva Sadler
Uh, she still works. She works pretty much. She probably half time. Um, and she’s a consulting physician for the state of Washington for their, um, child welfare services that, uh,
53:20.95
Marva Sadler
the social workers can call her and get recommendations about these are the, you know, the the social worker talks about here’s what the kid is presenting.
53:21.10
Lorie Jones
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
53:30.04
Marva Sadler
And it it typically is like a chronic illness or a behavioral problem. And she, as the pediatrician will say, these are the kinds of tests that they need. These are the kinds of specialists they need to go see.
53:41.12
Marva Sadler
This is what you need to ask the doctor because typically the parents are not able to to kind of do that. And so she’s doing, she’s doing a very meaningful thing And she’s still earning money and she’s still got a career. She’s still a licensed physician, but she’s doing it in a way that matches what she cares about.
54:01.94
Lorie Jones
her values.
54:02.20
Marva Sadler
and And she thought I was going to be upset with her. And I said, oh, honey, you do you.
54:06.74
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
54:07.43
Marva Sadler
No, I admire you that you are so clear on what’s important to you because it took me years to figure that out.
54:14.10
Lorie Jones
Mm-hmm.
54:14.58
Marva Sadler
and And so that would be my most important advice is, you know, honestly, figure out what matters to you and then do it and and create your success. That’s your success, not patterned after somebody else’s success or heaven forbid after what other people tell you you should or shouldn’t be doing.
54:35.43
Lorie Jones
I like that. Be your own you.
54:38.71
Marva Sadler
Yes.
54:41.18
Lorie Jones
Well, thank you so much, Marva, for speaking with us today and just sharing your journey. It really has been such an interesting story and um fearless all the way around. So I appreciate it. If I have a young lady who wants to ask some questions, how does she get in touch with you?
54:59.80
Marva Sadler
Well, the easiest way is probably to just email me. And because I have a strange name and I’m an early adopter of technology, um you can get me at marvasadler at gmail.com.
55:15.70
Lorie Jones
Perfect. Well, that is great. Thank you so, so much for your time.
55:19.96
Marva Sadler
Thank you. I really appreciated doing this. And I hope that somebody benefits.