Today, host Lorie Jones welcomes Nicole Riehl, President and CEO of EPIC (Executives Partnering to Invest in Children). Nicole shares her unconventional career path, starting in early childhood education, moving to the financial sector, and ultimately leading an organization focused on business-driven solutions for childcare.
Nicole talks about building confidence, making bold career moves, and the value of recognizing your capabilities even in the face of fear. She explains how embracing change and taking smart risks shaped her success. She also discusses challenges unique to women, like balancing a demanding career with family and managing the real impact of childcare costs. You will hear insights into the importance of mentorship, investing in professional growth, and cultivating supportive networks.
Nicole’s story proves you don’t have to wait for permission to pursue your calling, reminding us all that believing in yourself is the first step toward achieving meaningful impact.
Show Highlights:
- Zigzag career paths with value at every twist. [06:29]
- Discover lesser-known, high-impact opportunities in ECE. [09:08]
- Is embracing self-belief simpler than most women think? [14:36]
- The power of professional coaching and how to find it. [16:43]
- Puppy-like traits that mirror the value-add from young hires. [21:16]
- Unspoken office frustrations and learning to speak up. [28:37]
- Should young professionals invest early in a 401(k)? [32:59]
- How failing forward reorients mistakes towards excellence. [35:39]
- Penalty vs. pay rise and gendered post-childbirth realities. [39:33]
- What’s the “8” work–life integration model? [45:12]
- Do you say “just” to soften what you say? [48:22]
Find Nicole Riehl on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicole-riehl-ab46634/.
Explore EPIC and connect with Nicole at https://www.epicimpact.org/meet-the-team/.
If you enjoyed this episode, please go to Apple Podcasts and leave a review!
For more information about Lorie Jones, go to https://fearlessfinancialadvisors.com/fearless-females.
00:01.59
Lorie Jones
Good morning, Fearless Females. So today we are here with Nicole Reel. She is president and CEO of Epic, which is Executives Partnering to Invest in Children.
00:11.75
Lorie Jones
And I just love that title anyway. So that’s so great. But I’m really excited to have Nicole with us today. She’s she’s got a great story to tell us. And ah let’s get started.
00:24.36
Lorie Jones
Nicole, the very first question I always ask is, I’m a reader and I love any and all suggestions.
00:28.26
Nicole Riehl
Yep.
00:30.44
Lorie Jones
What is your favorite book?
00:32.95
Nicole Riehl
Oh my gosh, there’s so many favorite books I have. And honestly, my books have kind of changed over time that I like to read. However, I’ve always been a really big fan of books that can, you know, kind of help with self-improvement, if you will, right? Self-awareness, because I feel like that’s just so important for everyone. So kind of an old school book, but a really good D.L. Carnegie, How to Win Friends and Influence People.
00:59.10
Nicole Riehl
I feel like that book is really good about just learning about the basics of humanity and how people work and understanding, you know, the dynamics of meeting people and developing mutual respect and rapport amongst one another and having civil dialogue, right? And all those kinds of things. So it’s a really, it’s, you know, I think some people probably wouldn’t pick it up because it’s got kind of an old school cover, right? It’s been around for a long time, but it actually has a lot of really good nuggets in it.
01:29.44
Nicole Riehl
um Because I’m in the nonprofit sector, I also love a book called Forces for Good, which talks about nonprofits that are the most impactful in their work and how they are impactful and why. So I think that’s a great one, too. um And then I think also a good book, just Who Moved My Cheese, also been around for a while.
01:48.60
Nicole Riehl
but i think the message there is about how important it is to embrace a growth mindset and understand that things are always changing.
01:51.25
Lorie Jones
Thank
01:58.68
Nicole Riehl
And if you can get good at change management and understanding how to pivot when things change, which is basically constantly now that you will develop a really great skill set for how to manage your career and people and lots of other things in life too
02:16.09
Lorie Jones
I love that. And um the good news is I’ve read two out of the three of those. So my book didn’t, or my book list didn’t get exponentially larger, which is great.
02:21.32
Nicole Riehl
awesome yes that’s good
02:26.49
Lorie Jones
But I like the, ah the Carnegie book came out with a new edition just recently that changed some of the the older language and maybe more of the, that’s it just is better.
02:37.14
Nicole Riehl
Yeah. Oh, that’s good. Yeah.
02:38.65
Lorie Jones
Yeah. Yeah.
02:39.26
Nicole Riehl
Yeah. I mean, the cultural context changes so much over time. And so you kind of have to take some portions of those books, you know, and and kind of reframe them in your mind a little bit. But it’s good to know that they came out with a new version.
02:50.87
Lorie Jones
Yeah, yeah, yeah. it it And it is the cultural complex is a little bit better under that. So the conditions and um well, tell us a little bit about yourself, Nicole.
02:58.33
Nicole Riehl
I know. Yeah.
03:04.54
Lorie Jones
Tell us about your journey.
03:04.63
Nicole Riehl
yeah
03:05.54
Lorie Jones
How did you get started? where are you at today? Kind of what you’re doing, things like that.
03:10.04
Nicole Riehl
Yeah. happy to Happy to share more about that. I think like everyone, my career journey has had a bit of a zigzag path, which I think is really important for young people to hear about.
03:22.43
Nicole Riehl
Because oftentimes when you’re in high school or you’re in college, you know people want you to like pick a career right and like pick a pathway. And you’re like, oh my gosh, it’s so much pressure. like
03:33.14
Lorie Jones
well I’m 18.
03:33.24
Nicole Riehl
What am I going to do? Yeah. What am I going to do with my life? Right. um And, you know, the more people I talk to the more I’ve seen as I’ve gone through my career, everyone has these zigzags and these random paths and stops along the way they’ve taken.
03:49.14
Nicole Riehl
And all of those things add up to building skills that are you know going to help you be successful in whatever you’re doing. So, you know, my first job was actually working for the YMCA of Metro Denver, which I actually serve on the board of directors for right now.
04:04.04
Nicole Riehl
So really fun full circle moment for me there. But I was a before and after school program aid and my first jobs really were working with young children.
04:07.71
Lorie Jones
Okay.
04:13.91
Nicole Riehl
you know I loved working with kids. I had done babysitting you know earlier in my in my young life. And so I was a lifeguard. I did before and after school care. And then I eventually went to work for an early childhood program that was an on-site child care facility for an employer in Louisville, Colorado.
04:31.83
Nicole Riehl
And was in the infant room, toddler room, preschool room, right? Got to see all the kids in their various ah developmental phases. And there’s a lot of skill sets you acquire as an early childhood teacher.
04:44.96
Nicole Riehl
that comes to
04:45.37
Lorie Jones
Oh, heck yeah.
04:46.62
Nicole Riehl
yeah You know, like organization and planning and having tough conversations with people, right? Like just learning how to have a tough conversation with a parent about their child biting another child.
04:58.68
Lorie Jones
Oh, yeah.
04:58.68
Nicole Riehl
ah You know, it’s amazing how many of those skills translate into other jobs and roles. So, you know, my first work was really working with young children and I loved that. I went to college and got my business degree and took a pretty hard left turn from working in a classroom with young children to actually going into the mortgage and financial industry with a national home builder from there.
05:22.10
Lorie Jones
Okay.
05:22.84
Nicole Riehl
so you know, the first the first zig, if you will.
05:24.30
Lorie Jones
You’re like…
05:27.08
Nicole Riehl
um But also, I think a really great learning experience to spend some time in the private sector working with a large company. They did an amazing job of investing in me as a professional, as a young professional at that time and helping me really ah become self-aware, right?
05:45.98
Nicole Riehl
And understand where my strengths are, and understand where I had opportunities to grow So I worked in that field for for a handful of years. And then a friend called me who I’d worked with in early childhood before. And she said, Denver voters just passed this universal preschool ordinance in Denver. And they’re rolling out universal preschool.
06:05.05
Nicole Riehl
This was in 2007. And she said, we need someone to help us roll this program out. So we’re going to have to operationalize it We’re going to have to have someone who has the skill sets to operationalize a program kind of from the business end of that.
06:17.05
Nicole Riehl
But we also need someone who understands how to speak to preschool program operators and owners, right? And like understands that perspective they have.
06:27.11
Nicole Riehl
um And I was like, wow, that sounds super fun. And, ah you know, again, I just like made a hard right turn there, right? And was like, okay, like I didn’t want to go back to the classroom.
06:38.46
Nicole Riehl
I knew that, but I still had this like passion for, i loved business and I also loved early childhood and the impacts that it has on our society and on our culture.
06:49.78
Nicole Riehl
um and our workforce right saw that firsthand when i was you know back when i was a preschool teacher right and working with young children i heard from working moms and parents all the time how critically important having that benefit and that service on site was to them and how it actually helped most of them stay in their careers and and continue that path and so i was like yes this sounds great and that kind of took me into this whole nonprofit behind the scenes world around childcare and early education where I was fascinated by it.
06:50.23
Lorie Jones
Yeah. Yeah.
07:10.26
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
07:24.01
Nicole Riehl
um Right. I was like, oh, this is really interesting. You’ve got public policy at play. You’ve got nonprofit management, which for those who aren’t familiar with nonprofit leadership and management, it’s it can be really complex and really challenging, which I love. Right. And I was like, oh, this is great. Like I need I want to learn this.
07:44.22
Nicole Riehl
um And so it was just a really, it was a fun opportunity to build something in Denver that had never been done across the nation before. It was a great opportunity to learn about public policy. it was fun to learn about nonprofit management and compliance. And I ended up going back later and getting a graduate certificate certificate from Duke on nonprofit management and leadership because I just loved it so much. And that just kind of led me through various different you know positions and journeys, right, where I got the chance to really help grow an organization that was doing a lot of work around childcare in Colorado.
08:19.61
Nicole Riehl
and We grew this organization from about three people and a budget of about $700,000 to people and a million dollar budget. and
08:29.98
Lorie Jones
That is amazing.
08:31.26
Nicole Riehl
Lots of lessons learned right there.
08:33.37
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
08:33.69
Nicole Riehl
We’ll talk about that a little bit later.
08:34.01
Lorie Jones
Yeah. That is huge growth.
08:36.44
Nicole Riehl
so um And then in 2019, had the opportunity to take on this leadership role at Epic as their president and CEO, which is really, for those who aren’t familiar with Epic, you know we are an organization that works directly with the business community and business leaders.
08:54.04
Nicole Riehl
to advocate for investments in childcare and to help implement childcare solutions for the benefits of the workforce of today, but also for the benefit of a great workforce of tomorrow.
09:04.72
Nicole Riehl
So like that for me was just like, it felt like everything in my career was leading up to that moment where I was like, oh my gosh, these two, ah like my two favorite things in the world, working with business leaders and doing business work and early childhood, like these two things together.
09:09.82
Lorie Jones
Thank you.
09:19.78
Nicole Riehl
This is like my dream job. I love it.
09:21.91
Lorie Jones
Yeah, isn’t that so great how how your path, that your yeah it kind of was windy. It was a lot of switchbacks, but it led you right to the place where you were going to be the happiest.
09:28.95
Nicole Riehl
Yeah.
09:32.87
Lorie Jones
I’ve always been so interested in like, like that probably wasn’t my happy place, but my journey led me to my happy place and your journey led you to your happy place.
09:43.37
Lorie Jones
I just find that so interesting and and inspiring that that we get to work every day in things that we love doing, right?
09:43.80
Nicole Riehl
yeah
09:51.70
Nicole Riehl
Yeah. And if you really lean in and trust your gut or kind of take those leaps of faith when you have those opportunities, it’s amazing, you know, where you can find yourself. And I do, I hope that everyone’s able to find a career and a role that they enjoy and love. Right. And it’s like fulfilling to them in in many different ways as well.
10:15.35
Lorie Jones
So if you look back across this journey, is there an investment that you’ve made in yourself that was really like a turning point for you or like so important that you’re like, oh my goodness, I’m so glad I did that. I just wouldn’t be where I’m at today without it.
10:31.00
Nicole Riehl
Yeah, i i I see a few different examples of this. When I was a young professional, you know, again, I worked for this national home builder company that did a great job of offering lots of different professional development and leadership opportunities.
10:44.86
Nicole Riehl
And there were a lot of people who didn’t take advantage of those, ah right? They just kind of were like, oh, you know, that looks great, but I’m just going to, you know, do my thing. And I was just like, yes, I want it.
10:56.45
Nicole Riehl
I want it all. Yeah.
10:58.46
Lorie Jones
I will do all those.
11:00.28
Nicole Riehl
Yes, all of them. I was like voraciously curious. And I think the fact that I was like, just jumped into those things, took advantage of them, signed up for everything. I had the time and the freedom at that moment in my career and in my life to take advantage of all that information, all that learning.
11:17.20
Nicole Riehl
And it it really helped me, right? It really helped develop a lot of skills that I use today.
11:20.35
Lorie Jones
Thank you.
11:23.92
Nicole Riehl
um i think, you know, the other piece is thinking about Where are those moments where you can invest in yourself by believing in yourself and your skill sets? You know, especially women, I think sometimes tend to struggle with, you know, the complex of, you know, oh, I’m i’m not quite good enough, right? like I can’t quite apply for that job. And there are going to be these key moments in your life where a door opens And there’s something inside of you telling you that you should walk through that door or push that door open. Right. And and the other half of you is going to be absolutely terrified.
12:05.34
Nicole Riehl
And that’s OK.
12:07.74
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
12:08.28
Nicole Riehl
Right? Fear is is healthy in many ways for us. ah it just tells you that you’re growing, right? And you’re going beyond what’s comfortable to you. But I think a good example of this is actually my role at Epic. I wasn’t looking for a job when I found my role at Epic. I happened to hear at a happy hour that their previous president was retiring from her role and they were going to be looking for a new president and CEO. And that evening I was driving in my car. i remember this so distinctly.
12:35.38
Nicole Riehl
Something inside of me was like, You have to apply. you you need This is the job for you. this is literally like what you have been waiting for. And i tracked down the email for their board chair and I sent him an email and I said, hi my name is Nicole.
12:53.72
Nicole Riehl
You don’t know me, but here’s a little bit about myself. I heard you’re going to be looking for a new leader for Epic and I’ve always admired the work they do. i think you should hire me and here’s all my credentials.
13:04.48
Nicole Riehl
And it’s just a
13:06.36
Lorie Jones
Wow, that is fearless. I’m so proud.
13:10.13
Nicole Riehl
And it was like I said, it was terrifying. Right. Every inch of me wanted to like be like, no, no, you can’t do this. You’re not ready. But then I had this little voice inside of me that I listened to and it was like, no, you can do this.
13:22.62
Nicole Riehl
Take the risk. Right. And what’s the worst? You know, what’s the worst can happen if you take that risk? Right. Someone can say no. Certainly. But I think taking those moments to bet on yourself and do that.
13:32.92
Nicole Riehl
And I think lastly, thinking about professional coaching and who you can find as mentors or even colleagues to talk to as well. You know, it can be a really challenging role if you’re growing teams or if you’re leading an organization, can feel lonely sometimes, right?
13:52.71
Nicole Riehl
Because there are certain things that you just can’t talk about, or you know don’t want to like willingly share for whatever reasons. And so um you know I’ve invested in professional coaching for myself um over the past year and in previous years past.
14:06.39
Nicole Riehl
And it’s just really beneficial to have someone who can, in a very kind and authentic way, hold up a mirror for you, right?
14:11.15
Lorie Jones
Mm-hmm.
14:15.22
Nicole Riehl
Or be someone to listen just kind of sit in the mud with you, if you will, sometimes if you’ve got those like really tough circumstances. and and validate your feelings and just like hear the challenge and and just like sit there with you in it.
14:32.84
Nicole Riehl
And also someone who can of push you sometimes, right? And say, well, what would happen if you did do it differently? Right?
14:40.34
Lorie Jones
me
14:41.11
Nicole Riehl
And I think those instances are really helpful as you continue to invest in yourself and you continue to develop in your career. Yeah.
14:49.50
Lorie Jones
um’ve And I’ve heard that a lot and I truly believe it. But I’m wondering how you find the coach that’s right for you at that time. Like, is there any because there are like a million coaches out there? Like, how do you find the one that is going to work for you?
15:04.82
Nicole Riehl
Yeah, there’s you’re right. There are like so many coaches out there, so many offerings. I think the biggest thing is making sure you actually have a good connection with that person. And sometimes you know sometimes those things just happen by happenstance, right? You meet someone at a happy hour or you just have this like amazing conversation with someone. And you need different types of coaches and different people in your life at different times, right? So when I was younger, i met a woman, as an example, at a happy hour event. And I was like, wow. And she she was really accomplished. And she was further down the road in her career. and I was just enamored and with talking to her and learning about her career path. And it just I was like, would you be willing to like meet with me you know once every other month and just and just chat and talk? And I can learn from you and ask questions and maybe… I don’t know what you can learn from me, but me. um
15:57.11
Nicole Riehl
And she was like, yeah, yeah, absolutely. you know And so there was kind of those more like natural, informal opportunities for mentorship and And then in some cases, you know, the the person i’m working with now was actually introduced to me by another colleague who said, hey, I’ve worked with this person. She’s fantastic. Great. She worked with us on our staff retreat. And now I’ve been doing some leadership coaching with her as well. And it’s just been like the right person to work with at the right time.
16:24.73
Lorie Jones
So so it there is no one way, basically, is what we’re finding.
16:29.24
Nicole Riehl
Yeah, there’s no one way, right? But I think there’s always there’s also power in just like putting something out into the world and and saying what you want, right?
16:35.42
Lorie Jones
Oh, yeah.
16:37.48
Nicole Riehl
Even if it’s on LinkedIn or Facebook or or Instagram, right?
16:39.35
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
16:41.53
Nicole Riehl
Whatever it is, it’s just like, hey, I’m looking for a mentor and I’d love to have someone who can help me with A, B, and C, right?
16:41.89
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
16:49.90
Nicole Riehl
Understand what it is you might be looking for in terms of support.
16:50.22
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
16:53.72
Nicole Riehl
Maybe that’s self-awareness or maybe it’s like, hey, have a really hard time speaking up in large groups. I need a mentor who can help me understand how to find my voice and my power, right?
16:59.12
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
17:03.88
Nicole Riehl
Whatever it might be. And people will step up. I think people see those things and they’re like, oh, yeah, absolutely. Right. I worked on that 15 years ago with someone else and I’d love to like pay it forward.
17:11.16
Lorie Jones
yeah
17:15.99
Lorie Jones
Yeah. Yeah. That’s great. That’s really smart too, to to tell other people what you’re looking for, because if you keep it quiet, a lot of times you don’t find what you need. But if you if you talk to other people, and and I noticed also that you were out there networking in networking groups, talking to other people who were in your same situation, who may have experience with some of the things that you have experience with.
17:26.10
Nicole Riehl
Yeah. Yeah.
17:40.33
Lorie Jones
I think networking and and building those relationships even early in your career is so, so important.
17:48.06
Nicole Riehl
Yeah, absolutely. Just take advantage of those opportunities, even if they’re smaller ones, right? Sometimes a small group is actually like better quality over quantity. And so doesn’t have to be this like massive event that you’re going to to network at.
18:02.71
Lorie Jones
Mm-hmm. Nicole, what is the worst advice someone ever gave you? And did you take it? Yeah.
18:10.78
Nicole Riehl
Oh, gosh. Okay. So I was thinking about this. um So I think, you know, when I was a younger professional, i got some, i think, well-intended advice that told me to just sit back and not say too much and just absorb and learn things. And, you know, I always equate it to like,
18:32.77
Nicole Riehl
a puppy dog because I’m raising a new puppy this year with my family. um And if you’ve had a puppy, you if you know, you know, right.
18:36.27
Lorie Jones
Oh,
18:39.29
Nicole Riehl
It’s it’s crazy.
18:39.48
Lorie Jones
yeah. oh yeah
18:41.05
Nicole Riehl
um But, you know, puppies get so excited about meeting new people and and experiencing new things. like their tail is wagging so fast, they can’t even keep their back feet on the ground.
18:52.24
Nicole Riehl
And I think sometimes that’s like new professionals, right? Where they’re just so excited and they have so many ideas and they want to contribute. um And so you do have to understand how to like how to temper that excitement sometimes, right?
19:04.80
Nicole Riehl
But I also think that these younger professionals come at you know come into organizations, come into roles and come into processes and can bring something new and fresh to those things.
19:17.46
Nicole Riehl
so as an example, and I was like, like a puppy dog, right?
19:17.69
Lorie Jones
Mm-hmm.
19:21.41
Nicole Riehl
If you have a dog that is now like two or three feet tall and they’re calm and they just kind of meander around the house aimlessly and whatever, right? Like they may not see the item that’s been stuck under the couch for three years, but a brand new puppy, i can guarantee you, will find that item that’s been stuck under the couch for three years, right?
19:41.08
Nicole Riehl
Because they are so curious. They are so busy. They have a different perspective, right? right They are very close to the ground, and so they can see what the older dog can’t see.
19:47.26
Lorie Jones
Mm-hmm.
19:52.37
Nicole Riehl
And so I think in some situations professionally, younger professionals can come in and they can offer a different perspective. right They can see something maybe that’s been sitting there all along.
20:04.62
Nicole Riehl
that you know older leaders or or employees who’ve been with the company longer and have maybe just gotten accustomed to certain processes or the way it’s always been done just have can’t even see, right?
20:17.97
Nicole Riehl
And so i think there’s a lot of value as a young professional to speaking up and asking questions and being curious And offering your perspective, right?
20:19.06
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
20:30.98
Nicole Riehl
Because sometimes those questions and that perspective will lead to aha moments for companies if they’re smart, right? If companies are smart and so and and willing to kind of take feedback and think about how to continuously improve their environment and their processes, they’ll be smart to listen and be like, oh, wow.
20:50.55
Nicole Riehl
Yeah, you’re right. That is a really interesting observation. you know um The younger generation comes in with a whole different level of experience with interactions, with technology, with AI, right?
20:54.52
Lorie Jones
yeah
21:00.91
Nicole Riehl
All these different things. And so it was just, it was well-intended advice, um but I think it’s something that Young professionals, yeah, you have a lot a lot of learning to do, right? Certainly observing is important and never be afraid to like share your perspective and ask questions and share your ideas because you may bring a lot of value to that organization, that process.
21:24.06
Lorie Jones
Yeah, I think that’s so true. And I love, I’ve learned something from every single person that I’ve mentored or or trained or, you know, put through an organization. I’ve learned something valuable and interesting and important from them as well. And I think that that’s, they do, you’re right. I i haven’t ever ah connected it to the puppy dog, but that they’re right. They are so important.
21:50.36
Lorie Jones
um they’re so bubbly and they’re so interested and they’re so curious and they really do. And that’s how I always find my my team members too, is I look for those ones that want to learn, that are dying to do all the things that you find boring as an older dog, right?
22:03.83
Nicole Riehl
Right.
22:08.61
Nicole Riehl
Yeah.
22:08.85
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
22:09.32
Nicole Riehl
Yeah. Right.
22:11.86
Lorie Jones
So i but I love that, that analogy. And I think that’s so important to remember too. Yes. So, so do speak up and say something because sometimes the answer is, well, we’re doing it that way because it’s always been done that way.
22:24.98
Lorie Jones
And we’ve never really looked at it and been like, well, does that make sense? Is that still the way we should do it? Even, you know, 20 years down the road, like it takes someone to say, but why?
22:35.69
Nicole Riehl
Yeah, exactly. you know And it’s because I do a lot of public policy work around childcare and early education. And it’s amazing to me, right Like public policy and and the laws that are on the books in Colorado and other states and beyond at our level too, right? I mean, all of those are continuously edited and revised over time, right? Because what what was needed 25 twenty five years ago worked then and now it’s 25 years later and you need to revise and update those laws. Right. And so it’s funny when this is like a funny story, but my daughter was in preschool one year and she got in trouble. She had to stay inside during recess because she refused to wear her jacket.
23:19.51
Nicole Riehl
And, um, and so, you know, I just, you know, I spoke to the teachers and I said, can you help me understand like, you know, why she had to stay inside and said, oh, well, it was cold. We felt it was cold outside.
23:30.51
Nicole Riehl
She needed to wear her jacket. And I said, okay, well, you know, like it was there, like, let’s talk about the temperature outside, right. Or those things and things, but at the end of the day, like natural consequences, right. Like I’m like, she’s, she’s ph freezing.
23:42.50
Nicole Riehl
Like she’ll ask for her jacket. And I guarantee you the next time, like she probably will bring it with her. So just let her experience that natural consequence. And I had someone say to me, well, we’re preparing them for kindergarten and they have to learn that sometimes there are rules that don’t make sense, but they still have to follow them.
23:59.64
Nicole Riehl
And that stuck with me, right? Because I said, actually, I disagree with that statement, right? I make a living out of changing rules that no longer make sense, right?
24:11.30
Lorie Jones
Mm-hmm.
24:11.64
Nicole Riehl
Like, and think sometimes like there are those opportunities where we can say, hey, like it’s not just because we said so, right? Or not just because we’ve been doing the same thing over and over again for the past 20 years.
24:24.16
Nicole Riehl
Maybe it should change, right? Maybe we should think about it and look at it a little bit differently.
24:28.53
Lorie Jones
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And, and that’s, it’s a good case for diversity, equity, and inclusion as well. Like, you know, you have all sorts of different experiences and life experiences coming together.
24:40.35
Lorie Jones
You’re going to get people that are questioning some of the, the standards, those norms that we’ve always done it this way.
24:47.63
Nicole Riehl
Yep.
24:49.02
Lorie Jones
It’s the, it’s the motherhood equivalent of, because I said so, right.
24:52.79
Nicole Riehl
Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yes. ah You know, and everyone knows like you’re going to go out into the world and face real life decisions and real life consequences.
25:03.22
Nicole Riehl
Right. Including whether or not you wear your jacket and if you freeze. So, you know, I was like, OK, life opportunity.
25:07.81
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
25:10.16
Nicole Riehl
Right. We’re all going to learn.
25:11.96
Lorie Jones
yeah
25:11.99
Nicole Riehl
so
25:14.87
Lorie Jones
So Nicole, looking back over your journey, is there a situation that you were like, oh my gosh, I wish I could go back and have a do over. Like I would do that completely differently or I would, it knowing what I know now, I mean like going through it, knowing the same things, you’d probably do it the same way. But after, you know, this, this far down your journey, these many experiences and stuff like that, is there a situation you’d go back and do a do over?
25:42.36
Nicole Riehl
Yes, that’s a really good question. i mean, I think that there are some interactions that I had had with people through my career that I would have gone back and done differently.
25:52.55
Nicole Riehl
In some cases where people were unkind or people had, you know, had asked me to do something and commuted that communicated that request in such a way that…
26:03.64
Nicole Riehl
wasn’t appropriate, right? Or they had asked me to do something that I just like was like, I don’t like I don’t think this is actually the right way to do it.
26:05.62
Lorie Jones
Thank
26:09.32
Nicole Riehl
But I didn’t speak up. And i think in hindsight, there are those are those examples where I wish I would have had the moment and had the opportunity to understand how to ah eloquently communicate either my disappointment or my hurt or my frustration, whatever it might have been, and share that back with them in the hopes that it could, you know, probably resolve things for probably both them and me, but mostly me.
26:39.45
Nicole Riehl
ah You know, so I think there are those situations where, you know, you’re like, oh, I could say something, but I won’t.
26:39.66
Lorie Jones
Thank you.
26:46.40
Nicole Riehl
And again, I think that comes with confidence in yourself and feeling really confident in your own convictions, your own knowledge, your own expertise, rather than, you know, kind of just going with the flow and being like, you know, no big deal.
27:04.54
Nicole Riehl
ah So that would be though that would be an example of, I think, several circumstances where going back now, i would have said, hey, can we talk about this? You know, this really didn’t sit right with me. And I felt really hurt when this happened. You know, can we think about maybe this other way or, you know, whatever it might be?
27:23.16
Lorie Jones
Yeah, yeah. i And I wonder if, um like, I’ve i really questioned this because I’m thinking as we’re young and we’re unsure of our voice, we’re unsure, like, where we’re supposed to be speaking up and where we’re supposed to just be letting things go.
27:37.53
Nicole Riehl
Yeah.
27:40.30
Lorie Jones
um Like, i I wish I could go back and speak up a couple of times, too.
27:47.93
Lorie Jones
But I wonder if um if like we just we don’t have the confidence way back then to do it.
27:53.98
Nicole Riehl
Yeah. Yeah, I, you know, and I do feel like that, you know, those kind of micro interactions or like micro opportunities over the course of our careers, you know, they shape everyone’s perspective on people and women in the workforce, right, and all the dynamics that exist there. so I do feel like it’s those tiny little moments that add up to you know, big perception, if you will, or a big bias that someone might have.
28:24.20
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
28:27.29
Nicole Riehl
And i do encourage people, you can still be kind and you can still be clear, right? There’s a saying, kind is clear or clear as kind, I should say. And, you know, it’s true.
28:38.55
Nicole Riehl
Right.
28:38.68
Lorie Jones
yeah
28:38.95
Nicole Riehl
You can certainly be very clear about how you felt in that moment and the alternatives that you might want to offer or what that might look like and still do it in a kind way and giving people that clarity.
28:54.02
Nicole Riehl
And I think giving yourself that clarity and that confidence is also great, too.
28:58.30
Lorie Jones
Yeah, I like that idea. Like maybe do a little bit of practicing. and Like I’m, you know, as a woman working through the workforce, you’re going to come into contact with certain things.
29:10.38
Lorie Jones
It just, you know, it just happens. And so i think, you know, maybe ah practicing what you’re your kind but clear response might be to some of those situations that you find yourself in inevitably.
29:12.89
Nicole Riehl
Yeah.
29:24.82
Lorie Jones
um it it It doesn’t just happen with women either.
29:24.88
Nicole Riehl
Yeah.
29:27.94
Lorie Jones
Like, you know, any young person coming into the workforce goes through, you you have those situations that are just universal.
29:37.15
Nicole Riehl
Yeah.
29:37.21
Lorie Jones
They just happen, right?
29:38.37
Nicole Riehl
Right.
29:40.89
Nicole Riehl
Yeah. And you’re going to feel it, right? Like this is where I tell people like, you got to be really in tune with your gut. You know, there’s going to be those moments where you just, your gut is telling you something and to like trust that I think is a really good instinct that will serve you well to learn to listen to.
30:01.58
Lorie Jones
What if you could go back and high five yourself? This is my favorite question, actually. Well, my second favorite.
30:07.80
Nicole Riehl
Yeah.
30:08.58
Lorie Jones
I do like the book one. But if you could go back and high five yourself for a great past financial decision, what would that be?
30:17.36
Nicole Riehl
I would definitely be investing in my 401k early on as a young professional. and also, you know, the home building company I worked for had the opportunity to buy stock um for that company at a reduced cost. And so i took advantage of that. And what I will say at the time, it was really difficult for me to to make that choice because as a young professional, like,
30:42.24
Nicole Riehl
Retirement seems so far away, so far away, right?
30:44.95
Lorie Jones
Oh yeah, forever.
30:46.36
Nicole Riehl
You’re like, oh, I’ve got plenty of time to save. And there’s like, you know you’ve got plenty of fun, amazing things you want to spend money on and you’re trying to make ends meet and pay rent and write and pay bills and And I think that’s even more difficult today for for younger people to try to balance.
31:05.59
Nicole Riehl
But I will say, you know, because I started investing in a 401k a very young age, you know, in my in my early twenty s but You know, the compounding interest is amazing to see the product of.
31:18.96
Nicole Riehl
Right. So that would be my one piece of advice.
31:20.46
Lorie Jones
Uh-huh.
31:21.60
Nicole Riehl
And I have a young daughter now, too, who’s 12 years old. And we were just talking about setting her up with a Roth IRA last night because she’s got some money that she’s making with a like ah a fun little like kind of side business. um And I was like, you know, we should think about putting that money into an account where it can get invested and it can grow over time. And not very exciting for her, for sure. Right. Like she’s much more excited about the prospect of spending the money on something else. um But I think, you know, that would be a high five to my young self of like, OK, good job. Like you did it.
31:55.93
Lorie Jones
Yeah, yeah.
31:55.96
Nicole Riehl
So.
31:57.21
Lorie Jones
Yeah. and And it does feel too, like you said, it feels really hard when you’re young. But if you think about it, like, ah you know, I always told my kids, like, you’re deciding between like, eating out, you know, twice extra per week or putting your money, like, I’m paying all your bills, like, you’re not even paying your bills, right?
32:03.64
Nicole Riehl
Yeah.
32:19.06
Lorie Jones
it’ So… So you put just a little bit extra.
32:20.66
Nicole Riehl
Take advantage of it.
32:22.63
Lorie Jones
And if you see how much the the power of compounding interest like really opens their eyes, they’re like, oh, my gosh.
32:29.81
Nicole Riehl
Yes. Yes.
32:31.67
Lorie Jones
Yeah. But even if it is, ah and if they get used to it at that age, at that young age, you know, before they’re paying their own bills, then when they do start paying their own bills, um you know, they they will continue to make those good choices.
32:32.44
Nicole Riehl
Yeah.
32:44.93
Lorie Jones
I love that. i that’s I’m poster child for a Roth IRA.
32:48.30
Nicole Riehl
Yes.
32:49.04
Lorie Jones
so
32:52.17
Nicole Riehl
That’s awesome.
32:54.14
Lorie Jones
What scared you the most when you started your career? Did you have anything that was really scary? And does it still scare you today?
33:01.08
Nicole Riehl
Yeah. I mean, I think because I’m such a perfectionist and, you know, i desire to be a high performer and be really excellent in all that I do, i have a big fear of failure and messing up and, Letting people down.
33:18.38
Nicole Riehl
and I think it’s really common and easy to then not take risks because you’re afraid of making a mistake or letting someone down or not doing it just right.
33:28.91
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
33:32.28
Nicole Riehl
And over time, I’ve, you know, really learned it’s not about aiming for perfection, right? You’re aiming to do an excellent job in all that you do. But as a human being, you’re always going to make mistakes and you’re always going to have ways that you can improve in what you’re doing.
33:49.08
Nicole Riehl
and so just to, you know, take take those failures as opportunities to learn and like fail forward, right? We’ve heard heard that from people.
33:57.50
Lorie Jones
yeah
33:58.20
Nicole Riehl
um own it when you do something wrong, right? Or you screw up. I think accountability is a really important thing that really shows others who work with you, whether they’re direct reports or colleagues of yours or people that you might report to that you’re willing to learn and you’re willing to like to own mistakes and take feedback.
34:21.52
Lorie Jones
Oh, yeah. I used to do coaching with my team um every couple weeks. And one of the questions I always asked is, what what what could have gone better? Right.
34:32.06
Nicole Riehl
Yeah.
34:32.16
Lorie Jones
And it was it was so interesting that even my perfectionists among the the group would come to me and they would tell me where were.
34:32.16
Nicole Riehl
Yep.
34:43.22
Lorie Jones
you know, where they messed up or where they felt like they messed up. And then we talked about, okay, well, how could we make that situation better in the future? So it’s, we used it, we always used it as a learning experience for what could we What could we improve on?
34:58.35
Lorie Jones
How could we do better? And I i love that thought process because I, too, am a bit of a perfectionist. And I’m not sure I’m a recovered perfectionist like you are.
35:08.54
Lorie Jones
I think I might still be in the everything needs to go right.
35:11.37
Nicole Riehl
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
35:12.90
Lorie Jones
but And I never made that connection either between like um Not, you know, being a perfectionist, wanting to do things right and and avoiding the risk because because it it it probably goes hand in hand. You’re right.
35:27.26
Nicole Riehl
Yeah, well, and sometimes like in all fairness, life feels very high stakes even from high school, right? i mean, I felt like there was no other option but to get straight A’s in high school because it was very high stakes when it came to then thinking about your GPA, right? Your test scores, how you get into the the college you want to go to, whatever that is. And, you know, I do feel like there’s an opportunity even for like,
35:53.59
Nicole Riehl
the universities, right? And the colleges out there, like, how do you, how do you give people the opportunity to fail or learn from things that fell short of what they were aiming for, right?
36:05.62
Lorie Jones
Mm-hmm.
36:05.74
Nicole Riehl
And use that to like, to build on their character and their skill sets. It’s not always the straight A students that make the best leaders, right? And the best implementers in the business world.
36:17.56
Nicole Riehl
um I think we can probably all say that those of us who have been in our careers for a while. And so, you know, that’s where I think, you know, people have to make sure that it doesn’t feel too high stakes for for our young people to feel like they can take risks and continue to learn.
36:36.50
Lorie Jones
Yeah, yeah, that’s true. And in a culture, building a culture in your business of allowing that and and encouraging it, maybe.
36:40.73
Nicole Riehl
Yeah. Yeah. Great. Yeah, yeah. And making it like psychologically safe for people to do that. You know, that’s um not always normalized or something that exists in workplaces.
36:49.11
Lorie Jones
her
36:56.41
Lorie Jones
um So, Nicole, did you face any unique challenges because you were a woman along your journey?
37:01.78
Nicole Riehl
ah Yes, absolutely. ah You know, I think any any any woman who’s working in in the workforce, I think women in general, I’m sure, you know, people have stories around how they, you know, may have been perceived or treated a little bit differently because of their gender.
37:18.66
Nicole Riehl
Certainly, if you are a working mom, I think there’s a lot of dynamics that play into that, right? It’s um you know, thinking about like, A, are you going to start a family?
37:29.42
Nicole Riehl
There’s a lot of conversation in this country right now around birth rates, right? And the fact that we have, we our birth rate is below replacement rate in the United States and actually in a lot of other countries.
37:33.05
Lorie Jones
Mm-hmm.
37:40.18
Nicole Riehl
And the reality of that for a lot of people, and I know people personally who fall into this bucket, is that choosing to start a family has economic and financial implications that are oftentimes a much larger kind of negative, if you will, for women.
37:59.51
Nicole Riehl
Right. Like statistically, we know that, ah you know, when women have children and remain in their careers, they oftentimes take kind of a pay hit. Right. And we see that that pay gap widen.
38:12.07
Nicole Riehl
and oftentimes when men have young children and become new fathers, they actually get increases in their pay. um So it’s an interesting dynamic and certainly in my own career, you know, deciding to like go back to work.
38:26.54
Nicole Riehl
Like my husband and i we met when we were young. I was 17, he was 18. And, you know, somehow we’re we’re still together, right? It’s been a fun journey. But we forgot to actually talk about those gender roles and working we
38:36.05
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
38:41.74
Nicole Riehl
ah before we had kids. Right. And so we got pregnant with our daughter and it was like this moment of all of a sudden I had a different understanding than he did of what post baby meant, right.
38:51.56
Lorie Jones
Uh-oh.
38:53.70
Nicole Riehl
For the work world. And, you know, I, I love my job.
38:55.38
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
38:57.78
Nicole Riehl
I love working. I feel like I’m a better mother and a better person when I have that in my life. um And there are like very real things to, you know, to me keeping that role, right.
39:08.34
Nicole Riehl
We had to find childcare you In case anyone hasn’t heard, childcare is really expensive and really hard to find for infants and toddlers, right?
39:16.24
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
39:18.00
Nicole Riehl
And sometimes untenable for families to the point where we have people, men and women, who are dropping out of the workforce, not by choice, but because they have to.
39:18.01
Lorie Jones
yeah
39:27.32
Nicole Riehl
And so, you know, those were like very real conversations that we had to have in our family and figure out how to balance. um You know, it was one of the reasons why we were like, oh, like…
39:37.94
Nicole Riehl
Do we, you know, if we have a second kid, right, this is a whole different, whole different implication for us financially and. And otherwise, we decided that we were one and done um for lots of reasons, right? But I think that those are all all big pieces. And today in my role, I travel a lot. um You know, I spent like, for example, before last Thanksgiving, I was on the road basically every week for eight weeks.
40:02.04
Nicole Riehl
um And my husband retired out of his career three years ago and is now staying at home with our daughter and you know That has worked very well for us, but our gender roles and kind of how we’ve developed and built out our family has changed over time and has evolved.
40:02.10
Lorie Jones
oh well
40:17.08
Nicole Riehl
And so you know having those open conversations, um you know I think, is is a big piece. And there are a lot of companies, only about 25% companies, are sorry,
40:31.38
Nicole Riehl
Only about 13% of companies and actually formally ask their employees about childcare challenges. right? The other companies are relying on that information, quote unquote, coming up the the chain of command, right? Or coming up the ladder. And, you know, Lori, like you tell me, right? Like if you have childcare challenges, are you going to openly share that with your supervisor?
40:56.12
Nicole Riehl
no way, right? Like you’re like, there’s no way I’m going to share that information because I don’t want passed up for the next promotion, right?
40:57.94
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
41:02.40
Nicole Riehl
I don’t want that to get reflected on my performance review, et cetera. And so You know, that that information does not make it to leadership and companies, right? It’s very much a hidden problem that a lot of people are managing and struggling with on a day-to-day basis, which is why I love doing the work that I do so much.
41:12.60
Lorie Jones
yeah
41:21.21
Lorie Jones
Yeah, I can imagine. I know you have a big part in helping us solve that problem. Eventually, we’re going to get it all right. But but right now, yeah i i know some people’s daycare bills are twice what their mortgage is.
41:35.64
Nicole Riehl
Yeah.
41:36.40
Lorie Jones
it’s and it and And then you feel that, well, I’m not spending enough time with my kids. Am I spending quality time with my kids? But I love my job.
41:43.36
Nicole Riehl
Totally.
41:44.21
Lorie Jones
What do I do? it’s it really is a ah a hard question to answer with a lot of different facets.
41:51.77
Nicole Riehl
Yeah, the mom guilt is is a real thing, right? And it’s something that you really have to like learn to give yourself grace around.
42:03.16
Lorie Jones
What is the one thing you are most proud of, Nicole?
42:08.21
Nicole Riehl
You know, I think it is that actually, like being a good partner to both my husband and a good mother to my daughter, like getting learning to give myself grace in those circumstances where I’m really struggling with like, oh, am I spending enough time? right, with family or should I have done A versus B? But um i don’t know if you’ve heard the analogy around, you know, people always say like you’re juggling a million balls in the air. But someone, and I cannot give the person credit for this. i don’t know who it was, but talked about those balls being glass and rubber, right? And like some you can’t drop because if you drop it, it’ll shatter and it has very serious consequences and others are rubber. And if you drop it, it’s going to bounce and you can go pick it up again later.
42:53.17
Nicole Riehl
um And so I think, you know, I don’t really believe in like this like perfect work life balance idea, but i had a really great mentor describe it to me as this like figure eight, where you’ve got kind of work and personal working together.
43:04.49
Lorie Jones
Mm-hmm.
43:08.01
Nicole Riehl
And sometimes you’re at the top of the figure eight for personal and you’ve got a lot of personal stuff going on and Right. And then it kind of, it kind of calms down and then you’re at the top of the figure eight for work where work is really intense, right.
43:20.47
Nicole Riehl
You’re in a really heavy season. Right. And they said, it’s okay to move along that figure eight, right? And have kind of the ups and downs of personal and work.
43:31.19
Nicole Riehl
But they said, the challenge comes into play when you spend too much time at the top of that figure eight on either side. And all of a sudden you’ve got, you’re overwhelmed and you’ve been in this like crisis mode for too long and you’ve got to figure it out.
43:46.10
Nicole Riehl
And so figuring out how to bring yourself down,
43:46.49
Lorie Jones
Mm-hmm.
43:50.20
Nicole Riehl
if you can, hopefully, from the top of that figure eight, right? And kind of, you know, shift over, um give yourself some breathing time. You know, I think that’s that’s important. And then I’ll also say I’m really proud of what we’ve done at Epic. I started as the only employee with this organization seven years ago and super proud of the fact that we’ve been able to, you know, more than kind of 10 X our impact, our team, our revenue, right. We’ve really been able to grow this organization mission as an amazing team of people. And we’ve got, i think,
44:26.78
Nicole Riehl
14, 13, 14 people now on the team. And it’s just been an amazing journey. And i learned along the way that you can’t grow faster than your team’s culture and organizational systems when you’re growing teams.
44:32.24
Lorie Jones
Mm-hmm.
44:42.53
Nicole Riehl
And so I’ve been really intentional about trying to make sure that we are, you know, ah keeping in pace, right, the appropriate pace for both of those things at Epic, but I’m really proud of it.
44:53.74
Lorie Jones
Oh yeah, that is so true. I come up on the operations side of things. And so we could probably spend an entire podcast talking about the operations, making sure you don’t outgrow them.
44:58.42
Nicole Riehl
oh
45:02.40
Nicole Riehl
Yes. Operational systems, staff engagement, culture.
45:05.24
Lorie Jones
well Culture.
45:06.78
Nicole Riehl
Yes. All those things are super important.
45:09.50
Lorie Jones
Yeah. Yeah.
45:10.42
Nicole Riehl
Yeah.
45:11.16
Lorie Jones
Any advice for a young lady who’s just kind of starting down this path that you’re successful at anything that you would want her to know so she could be you one day?
45:22.26
Nicole Riehl
you know I’d say a lot of things we talked about today, like always be curious.
45:25.53
Lorie Jones
Oh.
45:25.98
Nicole Riehl
Don’t be afraid to ask for help or ask questions or write things and put them out there for big goals that you’re trying to achieve. right It’s kind of a running joke in my organization, but people always joke about like manifesting things and you know There’s some power ah with your own thoughts and the work that you do with actually stating what it is you want to achieve and what you want. And putting it out there is good.
45:54.78
Nicole Riehl
Stretch yourself, take new opportunities. Like I said, you should be slightly terrified about what you’re doing because it means you’re growing, um And you should trust your gut and really develop that.
46:06.30
Nicole Riehl
And i will say one piece of advice that I got from someone a while back, which is kind of a small piece of advice, but I have found to be super helpful, has been when you are speaking or writing, speak and write with intent, and knowing that what you have to say has value.
46:27.77
Nicole Riehl
And a good example of this is using the word just in emails. This is one of my pet peeves.
46:33.16
Lorie Jones
Mm-hmm.
46:34.93
Nicole Riehl
Women tend to struggle with this more than men, but a lot of people tend to start their emails with, hey, i just wanted to check in to see if what, you know, dot, dot, dot.
46:47.89
Nicole Riehl
And the word just is a minimizer. Right. So right off the bat, as soon as you send that email to that person, you have started your sentence with minimizing what you have to say. And i had someone who did an amazing training one time and she said, if it’s worth you sending an email, it is worth them receiving the message. What you have to say has value. Do not minimize it.
47:12.60
Nicole Riehl
And that is something that I have taken to heart that I try to coach others on and share with others to, you know, speak with purpose. you know And I think taking the time to invest in how to speak with purpose is also very useful, right? Understand the power of the pause. Understand how and why you might be using filler words like um and like, and try to eliminate those slowly from your speaking repertoire so that when you speak, you speak with clarity and purpose.
47:44.63
Lorie Jones
I love that that. A public speaking class or Toastmasters or something like that could probably be super helpful.
47:49.94
Nicole Riehl
Yeah. Yes. Again, probably slightly terrifying for a lot of people, right? Or maybe very terrifying for a lot of people, um but will absolutely help you grow.
47:55.61
Lorie Jones
Yeah.
48:01.59
Lorie Jones
Well, thank you so much, Nicole, for your time today, for sharing your journey, for sharing your wonderful insights. I really have appreciated it. If I have a young lady who wants to get in touch with you and ask some questions, how does she do that?
48:14.87
Nicole Riehl
Yeah, well, you can find me on LinkedIn, which is the place I probably spend the most time on social media. ah So just look me up on LinkedIn, Nicole Real with Executives Partnering to Invest in Children. ah you can DM me, you can you know comment on things or reach out and I’d love to chat.
48:33.69
Lorie Jones
Well, thank you. Thank you so much for your time.
48:36.41
Nicole Riehl
Yeah, thank you This was absolutely wonderful.